Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Jane Ide chats with civil society leaders about their professional experiences, challenges, wellbeing, and their journeys in the sector.
In this episode, Jane talks to Jo Youle, chief executive of Missing People, the UK charity for anyone affected by missing or thinking of going missing.
I used to feel that I needed to have the answers (…) to be good enough to do this sort of role that I needed to be the person with the answers. And there’s a lovely line in a song by Judy Tzuke, which is ‘we’re not looking for the right answers, we’re looking for the right questions’. And it also reminds me of Nancy Klein, who talks about the best thinking takes place in the presence of a question. And when you have brilliant people around you, as we do in organisations right across the third sector, as far as I observe it, that collaboration, that bringing people’s brilliance out has provided us with so many ways forward.Jo Youle
Jane Ide 00:02
Hello, I’m Jane Ide, chief executive at ACEVO, and you’re listening to Leadership Worth Sharing. Join me while I chat to civil society leaders about their professional experiences, their challenges, their wellbeing and their journeys in the sector. In this episode, I talked to Jo Youle, chief executive of Missing People, about being bold, being vulnerable, and balancing playing by music with playing by ear. Jo, welcome.
Jo Youle 00:40
Thank you. Good to be here.
Jane Ide 00:42
Lovely to see you. And I should just say, for the benefit of our listeners that we’re not out and about today, because it’s a little bit grey and a little bit noisy because we’re in the middle of Central London. So we’re actually sitting in ACEVO’s own office space, technically not our own office space. But the offices that we rest in, shall we say, in the way so many small charities are now doing in the post pandemic world. It’s lovely to have you with us. I think you’ve had a little bit of a journey getting to us this morning!
Jo Youle 01:09
Small issue of the wrong address in my calendar, which I just followed, and it was early.
Jane Ide 01:14
Ironically, yes, exactly. Yes. And I think the only reason I sort of mentioned that is because I have an unwritten rule. Now, although I am going to write it down, I suspect, which is that for all of us in the ACEVO network, absolute instant forgiveness for any of us for either going to the wrong place, being given the wrong place, I should say, in this instance, turning up late not making it to a meeting, whatever it is, because we all are just trying so hard to cope with the chaos around us, aren’t we? And it’s a real challenge. But so it’s great to have you with us. Thank you very much indeed for making the time to come in. You and I first met about six months ago, I think, and we were having a chat about, you know, how life was for you as a chief exec at that point and how things were at Missing People. Just tell me a little bit or just talk a little bit about who you are, what Missing People is about, what the job is like, and how things are at the moment for you there.
Jo Youle 02:11
Big question Jane, who am I? I’ve led Missing People for 10 years, which sounds quite a long time. But it feels like very distinct years with very distinct challenges for different eras of time, and I think in eras, and I think eras have a soundtrack or a tune to them. As a former songwriter, I tend to think in music and lyrics, which accompanies me as I hoof around. Missing People at the moment, I would say is in the new era of the post pandemic world, I’m pleased to say, and very much got a new horizon, we’ve been working really closely with families who have somebody missing, and talking to them about what they need the world to be for people in their tragic situations, living in limbo, and what vulnerable people who are missing need from the world and need from the charity. So I’m pleased that we’ve just signed off our new plan, a new way ahead. And that will be looking to change the national conversation around what missing means and to ensure that society understands that missing is a crisis. And tragically, sometimes, it’s a life and death issue. And we’re concerned at the moment because of all of the pressures that so many people are facing, with tough economic times, cost of living, which is a phrase that I think obscures the fact that it means that people can’t afford to eat. And we know that all of the issues that missing links with: mental health problems, people facing financial difficulties, people being exploited, sexually exploited, exploited into gangs, all of those reasons are exacerbated at a time like this. And so we’re particularly concerned that people are going missing at higher risk, which means thinking sometimes about taking their own lives, and really vulnerable. So we need to be for the issue, what’s needed at the moment is to keep it higher up the agenda, to make sure that all agencies are responding well to that, providing the support and Missing People playing a louder voice in that.
Jane Ide 04:45
So it sounds as though… I mean, I’ve known of Missing People for a long time. It’s one of those charities that you sort of think Yeah, I know them and you’re not quite sure how you’ve come to know them. And I think anybody as I’m sure many of our listeners have been in a situation where either thankfully for a very short period of time or sometimes tragically not so, we’ve seen somebody in our social network, somebody, perhaps in our extended family, whatever it may be, go missing in that way. I think being aware of the charity has been really important. But it sounds as though you are evolving to focus to the root causes of why people go missing rather than the than just the outcome of that does that, am I sort of articulating that in the right way?
Jo Youle 05:32
We’re looking at the, all of the reasons why people go missing and the harm that people come to and how we can work with lots of organisations across society, because the issue itself is on some scale. So 170,000 people go missing in our country every year, that’s around 70,000 children. Sometimes people go missing on more than one occasion. So that’s 350,000 incidents of the incidents that are recorded. And we’ve spent quite a few years trying to meet the need as an organisation, as a service delivery organisation at heart that provides support, counselling, advice, advocacy, that appeals to people that are missing, that helps to bring people back to a place of safety or back to their family. And our mindset shift is we want to provide those services, they’re crucial. And it’s unlikely that we will be able to be big enough on our own to meet that need. So how do we galvanise other organisations, work with partners, including police forces who have the statutory duty to protect vulnerable people and to help find people who are missing? How do we work with them and ensure that people understand that missing is not someone lightly walking away for a quiet moment, it’s people walking away from crisis feeling that the world will be better off without them, the families will be better off without them. It’s a unique psychological human thing, to walk away from something that’s really, really difficult. So we want to change the story. And we do want to look at the whole system that’s going on here.
Jane Ide 07:19
Wow. That’s that’s powerful, very powerful stuff. And I’m, I’m curious to go back a step I suppose in a way and understand a little bit more of the history of Missing People as an organisation maybe, but particularly your history. And you mentioned just now as a former songwriter, and that made my ears prick. Fascinating that how did a former songwriter come to be chief exec with Missing People with such an enormous passion and such a profound mission to deliver?
Jo Youle 07:48
When all my pals were heading off to uni, I decided to defer. Because I was writing songs, playing the piano. And it felt like that was the time when I was 19, quite a long time ago, and moved to London to get a record deal. And I do smile to myself sometimes because we used to blag our way into meeting chief execs of publishing companies, record labels, just by ringing up and being cheeky, sometimes that’s quite helpful when you need a charity to.
Jane Ide 08:21
I’m just thinking transferrable skills here can be very, very valuable.
Jo Youle 08:25
We used to drag our keyboard around through all the tubes in London, it was massive, it was really heavy and we used to plug it in and play and sometimes when I do pitches to organisations to secure funding, I think if I can do that, play in the chief execs office, I am sure I can stand here and and try and convince this organisation to support us too. We had a brilliant publisher that backed us, really early on, saw the potential, signed us and encouraged us all the way till we got a record deal and did two albums. At the same time, I’ve always had that sense of social justice and wanting to play my part in that and joined the Samaritans and was part of the central London branch of Samaritans for 10 years. And it gave me every single opportunity, not least the training, the listening, the supporting people in vulnerable times, but also that chance to try out running an organisation of 500 volunteers in that branch. I loved it. I loved all the people and loads of people gave me an opportunity and I took every single one of them. And that sparked my interest. I also think because I wasn’t saying I was a third sector professional, that it allowed me a bit of a Get Out of Jail Free card. I could chair conferences, I could lead training events, but it didn’t feel like I was saying this is what I do. And when the music came to an end, the career that I’d had, which was a sad moment, but it was also a moment of a new era. and I saw a role advertised in the Big Issue. Somebody was selling that at Richmond tube station. And at the back it said, helpline supervisor wanted. And I just thought that’s me. I remember turning up to the job interview, and Jane who interviewed me gave me, brought me a coffee from Nero. And I thought this is my place. And I did a lot of years, whilst doing the degree that I deferred. Alongside working within that helpline team, I loved it, being on the end of the line for people who were in crisis, it linked to the Samaritan work, it’s a very practical service as well. And I could start to see ways that we could do things with more impact. And finally got my dream job, which was director of the services team a few years later. And then one day, Martin Houghton Brown, who was the chief exec at the time now leads, St. John Ambulance, called me as I was walking out the office late one evening and said, Jo I need to let you know that I’m going, where does that leave you? And I said, I don’t know in the shifts. Have you thought about wanting to be the chief executive of Missing People, and never crossed my mind, I agreed to do an interim chief exec role, I didn’t think it was the role for me. And I’d always thought that I was a great number two person on the team, I used to come second in piano festivals. I used to be in a band with a brilliant talented singer and feel like I was the support to that. And I used to think that I was a good person to have on your executive team. And I didn’t think that I would be the person to lead it, and allowing again to try it on for a few months, see how it went. So it was going okay. And finally was encouraged by trustees to apply for the role, which I got.
Jane Ide 11:56
I love that there are so many threads in there that I recognise not just from my own career, but from so many others about, about those sorts of parallel worlds, about bringing different things in from those parallel worlds into our working life, about somebody else seeing something in you that you didn’t see yourself, then having the courage to take that opportunity as well. Because I mean, you mentioned to begin with when you went to Samaritans, people giving you chances to do things and I think that, you know, it has to be a marker of leadership that you’re willing to take those chances to try something, to risk it, to see whether it works or not. Because otherwise, how do you develop your leadership practice? So you said to begin with, that, you kind of see, see these things in phases, in chapters. I suppose, apart from anything else, and I’d love to hear more about actually what the whole story has been like for you. But the last three, four years, I keep saying we, I think we should count everything from 2020 to 2023 in dog years anyway, because it certainly feels as though we’ve had to pack up far higher level of activity and intensity and everything that comes with leadership in such challenging times into those three years. How has the role evolved for you? How have you evolved as a leader over these different chapters?
Jo Youle 13:15
The pandemic chapter has taught me about boldness. I never thought for a moment that we will be able to move our entire national operation to people’s homes. And I remember walking into Missing People knowing that the lockdown was on its way. There were rumours circulating about the army turning up in London, there was all sorts of heightened feelings. And I just thought we have to keep this service operational throughout. And I went in and met my brilliant team, thinking I was going to be in for a battle. And when I said we need to get this whole thing operational, they jus went absolutely. And it allowed us to do things that we wouldn’t dare doing before. Although it crossed my mind, would it be possible for people to be able to provide the service from different parts of the UK. And that’s changed. And then sadly, during the pandemic, we needed to slim ourselves down if you’d like to slink our way through and make sure we were sustainable as an organisation. That was really hard. And we looked at the way that the whole organisation operated and where we brought most value. And that led to another really significant change. So our operating hours, went from nine in the morning till 11 At night, seven days a week which I think’s incredible amount of provision for people across the UK, but we had been 24/7. So now I’m trying to hang on to that sense of boldness that you can lead a team and they lead me as well at times to be clear, to do things that feel beyond possibility. So what can we learn from that, I don’t think I was that bold leader before then. The circumstances brought that out in all of us. And now I’m hanging on by my fingertips to that sense of what might be possible. If we were brave enough to do it, to enable us to be what’s needed by the issue that we’re all serving in, in my case around supporting missing people and their families.
Jane Ide 15:23
That’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because I think I’m certainly saying, I’ve been talking about this quite a lot recently. I think we all remember during the, during the pandemic, there was a lot of that conversation of, now’s our chance to change things, now’s our chance to do things differently. We’re not going to let it go back to the way it used to be. And yet, then, of course, I think that was a that was a very positive and optimistic view. But actually the reality then I think, when it went on longer than people expected, and when people were getting exhausted and drained, and all the challenges within the sector and elsewhere that we saw come through that. And as we got to sort of the end of 2021, started 2022. Actually, people did just want to go back to whatever felt like normal, because there wasn’t the energy to change things. And yet now, as we’re in 2023, now seems to be the time when people are saying, Actually, we’ve had a bit of a, I won’t say we’ve had a bit of a breather, because I don’t think that’s been true at all. But we’ve had a chance to step back and take stock a little bit. And now we know what are the things we really want to do differently. And there’s more of that freedom, as you say that, that we’ve had to practice being bold, we’ve had to practice doing things differently. We’ve had to practice being challenged and still needing and I think that’s a really interesting space to be in. For us, as leaders now. So for you, personally leading through, leading through all of that process, because you were there before the pandemic, you were there during the pandemic, you’re there now, there must be some very distinct changes in the sorts of challenges that you’re having to deal with. And the way you think about your own leadership. And you’ve touched on that a little bit already. But can you sort of expand on that a little bit?
Jo Youle 17:07
I used to feel that I needed to have the answers. So to be good enough to do this sort of role that I needed to be the person with the answers. And there’s a lovely line in a song by Judy Tzuke said, which is we’re not looking for the right answers, we’re looking for the right questions. And it also reminds me of Nancy Klein, who talks about the best thinking takes place in the presence of a question. And when you have brilliant people around you, as we do in organisations right across the third sector, as far as I observe it, that collaboration, that bringing people’s brilliance out has provided us with so many ways forward. So in some ways, the role in my mind now is more about being a convener or a conductor in that brilliant TED talk. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, where he shows different ways of leading orchestras, from the very flamboyant to the people that do the smallest movement and string section kicks in. And I think my role sits in that kind of a space. And I’ve always had that feeling that sometimes, you need to be out front, you need to be out with a butterfly net catching ideas and different ways of thinking to bring it back to your organisation. Particularly when you’ve been in the role for a while to make sure that your ideas are fresh. And sometimes I think it feels like I’m right alongside everyone. And probably that’s my favourite place to be. Occasionally you feel like you’re pushing from behind. And then sometimes you’re being pushed too. So it reminds me of I went on this cycle challenge in the Lake District, and we biked around this first corner on this mountain bike, we’re going up this hill until I realised I was going backwards and somebody’s handles on my back trying to help me go in the right direction. And I think sometimes our roles sit in all those different spaces. Essentially, my view is that if you can collaborate with people and bring out their best thinking, that’s where the magic lies. And I tried to do that. And sometimes I’ll need to make a final decision or need to influence the conversation to go in a particular way, or do the proper leadership stuff where you take people where they wouldn’t go without you. But most of the time, I feel that the vulnerability in these roles because of the responsibility we have of organisations that are so precious, and at a time like this and more precious than ever, as our organisations are stepping into effectively provide an element of social services, that vulnerability of a leader holding on to that responsibility can be shared across a team. And of course, you’re the one at the end of the day that kind of carries it with your board. You can’t get away from that, but that’s the shift for me, feeling that I needed the answers to much less than that space, but I do feel like I need ideas and energy and to be able to keep adding new value back into the organisation from being able to be out and about having conversations like this.
Jane Ide 20:11
Which is a great part of the job, obviously. But I’m really struck about what you say about that vulnerability. And that, again, that feels as though, it feels as though it’s always been there or has been there for a long time in some very good and inspiring models of leadership. But perhaps the experience of leading through the pandemic has made it more real for an awful lot of people that perhaps didn’t necessarily know how to do it or didn’t even feel they wanted to do it. You were talking there about how… well I want to paraphras, tell me if I’ve got this wrong, that that you feel better able to share that vulnerability with the people around you. It’s not the leader has to know everything is now the leader can show that there are questions to be asked and and so on. Is that about right?
Jo Youle 20:54
I think teams and organisations need to know that the person that’s leading it can shoulder it, can take the responsibility and the accountability for everyone, can deal with what I call the tricky buzzards. So can have those conversations with some of the people that are really challenging. We’ve all had those over time. So often people will come to me when things are struggling. And will you will you be able to pick this up? And yes, I will. Yes, I’ll do the speech. Yes, I’ve got on the stage. Yes, I’ll get the trainers on and for those luckily enough, lucky enough to be able to do running or walking. Yes, I’ll do a charity challenge. So I think people do need to know that. And also know that you are just a regular person like everybody else having some good days, and some not so good days. And I was really touched recently, when I’ve been dealing with a really tragic situation around somebody going missing. And it really did affect me as it does all of us working in those difficult spaces. And it was somebody on my team that noticed I was struggling and sent me a text going Jo, do you need to have a conversation with our supervisor? I won’t forget that. And it was a conversation that really helped me at a time when I was, yeah I was I was struggling with the impact. Because if you are a sponge, if you are an empathetic person, you take some of this stuff on board, and it affects people in different times. But I’ve made sure that I’ve shared that story over and over within the organisation, because I think it shows that it’s okay to reach out to someone and ask them if they’re alright. It’s okay to say that you’re not all right. I didn’t need to share the details of that conversation with anybody. It was a really personal conversation. But I think it tells quite an important story around how affected, however many years I’ve been involved with Missing People and however many years I was involved with Samaritans and I was also on the board of Brook young people. There are stories from within all of those that always stay with you, that you always carry with you. And I think that engagement, that connection to the heart and soul of what we do is really important in everybody across the organisation and in a leader doesn’t matter how long you’ve been there for.
Jane Ide 23:20
Yeah, I think that’s incredibly powerful. And I was gonna ask you about how the people around you are responding to that authenticity, that openness. And I think you’ve just touched on it there. And there’s something I think very, very powerful about… there’s something about and it is to do with sort of hierarchies and ancient power structures, I suspect, but there’s something about when somebody who is less senior feels able to step out and ask if the more senior person is okay. And that’s incredibly powerful. Because so many organisations, so many cultures, A) they might not have noticed B) if they had noticed, they might not think it was their responsibility to do anything about it. And even if they wanted to, they may not have felt that they could dare to do so. There’s something we’ve been talking about bold and brave. And actually there’s a there’s a bravery isn’t there in somebody less senior being able to do that. What else do you think you’ve seen in the people around you? How are they responding to this post pandemic world and this different style of or this evolved style of leadership that you’re talking about?
Jo Youle 24:22
I think the times we’re in call on us to be bold according to our purpose. And recently, we released a research report that looked at the connections between ethnicity and how police and local authority were responding to missing reports. We did a freedom of information request, which showed quite stark differences in the outcomes and the responses from those statutory agencies. That showed for example, that black people were more likely to be reported missing less likely to be recorded as a high risk, less likely to be found by the police, and more likely to be missing for longer. We knew that that was going to be quite significant, especially since it was following the tragic disappearance of Nicola Bulli that has had a huge media exposure. And quite rightly, she was at high risk, obviously, a tragic situation. While we were preparing for some of those media interviews, and I was spending time with the team, it occurred to me that I could do with a practice run of the tough questions. And we got together as a team, and the team gave me the questions, I responded, and then they picked it apart, I deliberately unfolded my arms to avoid (inaudibl, laughs from Jade Ide) And we were talking about it just this week, how we were able to go out with a confidence as a white leader talking about an issue that affects Black and Asian people, to do that, with sensitivity, to amplify the voices of other people. And the thing that I noticed there, and I said it this week, the team were incredibly helpful. Critical, picks me up and picked others up when things weren’t right. And it doesn’t matter what role you’re in, because the responsibility is to the issue. And I think that’s a real change. And I’m really encouraging that. How do you manage to give feedback to someone that might not be that flattering? When you get things slightly wrong? And I’m going to be celebrating that all over the place, that the team feel confident enough to do that, that we can have those conversations often comes down to the value of your relationships and how strong your relationships are. Because we all know that you can handle difficult conversations, feedback that might be critical if your relationship is good, and that people trust you that you’re going to be okay with that, that you can come out the other side okay.
Jane Ide 26:54
It is so important that we’ve been doing some work this week, within our own team at ACEVO, around our internal values, behaviours; and trust is probably the, one of the single biggest things we’ve been talking about and how you, we do have a very strong team here. And it is founded on that trust. And it’s so important in terms of creating that psychological safety. But the next step in that has got to be the ability to use that trust to have those difficult conversations and to know that they are difficult conversations, they’re not personal challenges, I suppose what a better way of putting it and I think that’s an it’s it is, again, it goes back to what you were saying just now about, you know, some of these models of leadership have been around for a long time, but haven’t necessarily been commonly shared or understood. But that willingness of the, the most senior person in the organisation to say, actually, it’s okay, I can be, I can make myself vulnerable, I can show you that it’s okay for somebody else to have a difficult conversation with me, that’s a really great way of modelling it for other people and saying, this is part of how we do things around here, which ultimately is, is one of the things that we all do as leaders, whether we know we’re doing it or not, isn’t it, we set the tone of the culture. But it’s quite challenging. And I mean, I think for any sector leader, it can be quite a, again, we’ve talked about it being vulnerable, but there’s a difference between choosing to be vulnerable, and the vulnerability that comes with being in what can be a difficult role. And people talk to me about it being isolating, or about, you know, the challenges of sitting between the board and the staff, and all of those sorts of things. And obviously, that’s, you know, something that we all have in common in terms of the structures that we work within. And you’re working in an environment that is, by nature, the mission that you do is emotionally challenging. It must be tough, you know, clearly it’s going to be tough work. So how do you invest in yourself as a leader? Where do you get your support from? What do you do? You’ve mentioned, bike rides, you mentioned music quite a lot, which is, which is lovely. But yeah, what do you do for yourself? And how do you… you’ve been 10 years in the role. How do you keep… It sounds actually as though you’ve got the answer to that. I was gonna say, how do you keep it fresh for yourself, but but there’s always something new round the corner isn’t there?
Jo Youle 29:14
I think for me, the starting point is that I am I’m able to do this sort of a role, because of my background, not despite it to start off with. So I’m starting from that place. I’m starting from an un-poor un-disadvantaged background, house full of books, piano lessons, support, backing, that’s part of my drive, because that means I have every reason to work really hard and try and achieve some stuff with lots of other people as part of that. Some of the things that have been incredibly valuable for me since taking on the role have been the connections and networks of people that I know. I’ve had a lot of frothy coffees, with people where… thinking I’m not quite sure why we’re meeting. But I always take something from that, from the network within ACEVO. And other chief execs that I’ve met and have been incredibly generous with me, sharing as much as anything where things have gone wrong as when they’ve gone well, I always walk out feeling a bit better. I’ve had an amazing mentor, guy called Joe Irwin, who writes on leadership and has been there for me throughout and has given me invaluable advice, the best piece of advice he ever gave me was when I was in the pandemic, really struggling with someone that I’ve been working with, at a distance, and I couldn’t analyse it and work out what was going wrong. And I told them all the different things I tried, and he went, you’ve been out for a cup of tea? I’ve also had a coach and I’ve also trained to be an executive coach. And I’m now coaching people within different sectors, within the education sector, within the political world. And that’s allowed me windows into other organisations, other cultures and realising that the challenges thread through and they thread through business, they thread through all sorts of different worlds. That’s very validating and helpful. And the coaching is really helpful, you get a huge amount from it. And I also have been part of the Windsor Leadership Programme. And I go and speak on their programmes, come out feeling like I’ve been on Newsnight, they ask some amazing question more from talking to people that are on leadership training courses than anywhere else. And then it’s for me, it’s a mixture of podcasts and books, listening to news programmes, and the occasional box set. Those sorts of things, just give me energy. That’s what keeps me bouncing along. And I think, really, the final point in the in the leadership journey is going back to the heart and soul the groundedness of what we’re doing, and being with a family who has a child missing, partner missing, that’s the ultimate grounding force. And never to be too far from that, I think, is absolutely key. And I think the way that the charity has evolved over time, and the difference from when I was in the director of services job to where we’re at now, and this is down to the team, is that the people who have lived with missing, who understand it, are now part of the organization’s thinking. They’re part of the plans that we’re working to, we’re there to support and amplify that. And they’re leading the organisation.
Jane Ide 32:53
Which is a really powerful message for our sector, because I think that’s so, so much part of what people have been thinking about, about how to really put that… lived experiences becoming a little bit of a cliche phrase, but how to put that, that deep understanding of the mission at the heart of the organisation, rather than it being the thing that we do to other people. And you’re a fantastic exponent, I think, and a great ambassador, for your organisation and for your cause. So thank you very, very much for sharing that with us. Finally, before we wrap up, I’ve got to ask you, what would be your top tip for somebody who’s just at the start of their leadership journey, who’s just starting in their first chief exec roll or just about to do that? What would you say is the biggest lesson that you’ve learned?
Jo Youle 33:42
That we need leaders of all kinds, so we need the thinkers, we need the shouters, we need the collaborators. We need people from lots of different backgrounds in those leadership roles within organisations, because that reflects the world that we live in. So to go in with that self belief, and for me, there’s a bit about playing by music playing by ear, I can read music, but it was the being able to play by ear that allowed me to create. And I think that’s the same in leadership roles, which is, yes, there are theories, there are ways of doing this stuff. And I’ve read plenty of books on that. And also, there’s instincts as you’ve got feeling that you weigh with people. So I don’t think you can go too far wrong if you’re able to do a bit of playing by music bit playing by ear.
Jane Ide 34:38
That is brilliant, and I’m going to steal that one. Thank you, Jo. You will hear that when coming back again. Various points, I’m sure. Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute joy talking to really appreciate this and thanks very much.
Jane Ide 35:00
This was Leadership Worth Sharing the podcast by and for civil society leaders. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, you can listen to all previous ones in every major podcast platform. You can also read a transcript on our website. That’s ACEVO A-C-E-V-O.org.uk. or drop us a message on twitter, twitter.com/acevo. See you again in a few weeks. Bye for now.