Welcome to The Leader to Leader Podcast (season 2, episode 1)
In this opening episode of the second series, Jane Ide, chief executive of ACEVO, sits down with Irene Sobowale, former chief executive of Brainkind, for a conversation about what leadership looks like when you have the chance to step away from the day job and look back in.
After 13 years at Brainkind, first as finance director and then as chief executive, Irene is taking a sabbatical year and considering what might come next: a return to executive leadership or a move towards a non-executive portfolio. Six months into that break, she reflects on what it means to give yourself permission to step away, and on the different perspective that comes from no longer being immersed in the immediate pressures of running an organisation.
Looking back over her years as a chief executive, Irene describes how the leadership landscape has changed. When she first took on the role, much of her focus was on the organisation itself: its services, the people it supported, compliance and modernisation. Leaders still have all of that to contend with, she argues, but external pressures now occupy far more space. Climate change, political change, shifting demographics, technology and AI are all shaping organisations and the communities they serve. Irene describes this as a period of transition: the “messy bit in the middle” between the world we knew and whatever comes next.
The conversation turns to whether leaders and organisations are equipped for that environment. Irene talks candidly about trying to keep pace with rapid technological change and why leaders need to recognise the expertise they do not have. Leadership, she argues, cannot simply reside in the senior levels of an organisation: people with the right knowledge and skills need to be given a voice, wherever they sit.
That leads Jane and Irene into a wider discussion about collaboration. The sector has talked about working collaboratively for years, but Irene questions whether organisations create enough time for genuine collective strategic thinking. Leaders can easily be pulled back towards operational pressures and the needs of their own organisations. She argues for more opportunities to think and learn together, including across the charity and commercial sectors, rather than every organisation going through the same processes and pain points alone.
Boards are part of that conversation too. Irene reflects on the relationship between boards, chief executives and organisations, and asks whether a focus on organisational priorities can sometimes make it harder for CEOs to create the bandwidth for wider collaboration and systemic thinking. As the environment changes, she argues, boards also need to think about the mix of skills and experience they need and how they can help organisations look beyond what is immediately in front of them.
Looking ahead, Irene sees agility, collaboration, connection and a willingness to experiment as increasingly important. Leaders will need to accept that they will not always get things right first time and be prepared to innovate and work differently. One thought in particular stays with Jane: Irene’s observation that we may no longer have the past to fall back on when deciding how to do things in the future.
Finally, they return to the importance of creating space. Irene encourages leaders to find the bandwidth to think beyond the immediate here and now, and to have those conversations collectively rather than trying to work everything out alone. She also reflects on the need to look after ourselves and each other when so many people are navigating significant change and pressure.
And, as the baton passes on, Irene introduces the leader she’ll be interviewing next: Lee Webster, deputy chief executive at Respect.
Transcript
Jane Ide
Irene, it’s lovely to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining me, and I just wonder if we could start. Perhaps if you could just introduce yourself a little bit to the listeners and explain who you are, what where you’re at in your career right now, and and how you’re looking at the world.
Irene Sobowale
All right. Well, hello, Jane, and thank you very much for having me. I am Irene Sobowale. I have been up until very recently. I was the chief executive of Brain Kind, and Brain Kind is an organisation that provides rehabilitation and support and care for people who work with brain-related conditions. So whether that’s a brain injury, whether that’s physical or disabilities that impact on the brain and therefore have a follow-up impact. So whether it’s a stroke or it may be a condition that impacts on the brain, and we’re able to support them. I was at Brain Kind for about 13 years. Started off there as the finance director and quickly became the chief exec was promoted to chief exec a couple of years later, and ever since then, I think it’s safe to say I’ve been on a bit of a journey, a bit of a growth journey, personally and with the organisation in terms of the development of the organisation, the real clarification of what we’re about, and actually the services that we’re able to provide for people that we that needed our support and services. I’m an accountant by background. Before joining Brain Kind, I worked in the commercial sector, largely in financial services organisations. As an accountant, though, so able to bring my skills to Brain Kind to the not-for-profit sector, and I’ve loved it ever since. It felt like a coming home, I have to say, in terms of the fit between myself and the sector more widely. But also, I knew that I had developed skills and expertise that would be transferable, that I would be able to bring to Brain Kind. I think it was a bit of a the shift from a finance director to a chief executive was an interesting journey and an interesting process going through from going to from an area of real subject matter expertise to that broader management oversight and governance, and it was an interesting, challenging but very worthwhile transition. I would say.
Jane Ide
I I suspect we’re going to dig a bit more into some of that. But you said that’s where you were the the role you’ve most recently had. So where where are you now? What’s your situation now?
Irene Sobowale
So I’m on what I’ve currently described as my sabbatical year. So I’ve taken, I’ve left Brain Kind, and I have taken a year out. I thought I’ve worked for the past 3040, years, and felt it was a good time to actually take a break and reassess my priorities, where I wanted to be, and what I wanted to do and what I wanted to focus on. It’s a bit of a it’s a bit of a crossroads in the sense of do I want to carry on with an executive career or perhaps transition to a non-executive type portfolio type role. So that is allegedly what I’ve been spending my time focusing on over the past six months, but I have to say I’ve spent the last six months completely having complete downtime and actually not really focusing on that side of things, but really focusing more on myself. And I’ve had spent the last six months travelling. I’ve been to lots of places, which I won’t bore you with now, but having enjoying the liberation that comes with being able to take some time out, giving myself permission to take that time out, and really enjoy and be in the moment of enjoying this break that I have from from work at the moment.
Jane Ide
That’s actually very relevant to to this episode and the the start of this second series of our Leaders to Leader podcast because what we’re focusing on this time round is very much the the different perspectives on leadership that come at different stages in our leadership careers and and we quite intentionally wanted to start with somebody like you who who’s actually stepped out of it, even if it’s only for a while, because that perspective that I think you can then have when you are looking back from not from the outside, you’ll never be outside, but but from a from a slightly different place, you’re not in the middle of it all. You’re not going to be leaving this conversation and going back to dealing with the board papers or the you know whatever it is that you’re dealing with your senior team and and so on and so forth. So I’m really interested to explore that a little bit. And and maybe if I can, the first the first thing I want to to just pick up on a little bit. You said that you’ve been at BrainCard for 13 years, which is a substantial amount of time for anybody, and. It really struck me that even though it’s six months since you stepped away, as you were talking about it, you sounded like you were still there. It’s still very much in your in your head, in your in your soul, in your spirit, isn’t it? Is that how it feels? Do you feel like you’ve actually stepped away, or is it still a a kind of a transitional thing? It’s
Irene Sobowale
a really interesting question, Jane. I do feel like I stepped away, but as you say, 13 years in one organisation is a long time. Those 13 years were each year was different. Each year there was a different focus, a different dynamic, and so it was very much part of very much part of me. I was very much part of the organisation and and an integral part of the organisation. So does it feel like I’ve stepped away? Yes, it absolutely does. Does it feel like I’ve stepped away from the sector? Not really. I still have. I’m still interested in what goes on in the sector. I’m still interested in the change that we’re seeing as a society, as an as as a country, but also as as a sector. So we we obviously very quickly getting into politics where we didn’t want to go, but thinking about the change in governments and how that impacts on things. So I think it always affects your thinking, how you consider and your perspective on the world, but looking at it from the outside, like you said, actually it is from the outside looking in rather than the other way around. But I guess because I haven’t determined what my next step is going to be, it does very much feel like it’s very, it’s still very close to where I was, and I haven’t got something more specific that I’m focusing on at the moment.
Jane Ide
No, no, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. So let’s let’s look backwards a little bit. So 13 years ago, you stepped into the role of chief exec. 2013, I think I’m right in saying David Cameron was prime minister, which gives it a real sense of oh my word, you know the world was a very different place, obviously pre pre pandemic, pre all sorts of other things in our political environment. When you look back now, what do you think? And when you think about leadership today, what do you think feels most different? What changed in that period of time? Do you think for for leaders in our sector?
Irene Sobowale
Well, that’s a huge question, Jane. And actually, I think it goes way beyond our sector. I think the changes from a leadership perspective. I think the changes were very much when I took over, even starting as the finance director, and then coming on to be the chief executive, my focus was very much on the organisation, on the people that we were supporting, on the services that we’re providing, and how we make that better, how we improve, how we make sure that we’re compliant with the various changes that we’re coming through, whether that’s through from CQC, the Charity Commission, just making sure that we’re keeping abreast of all of those types of changes, but also modernising, bring the bringing the organisation into the 21st century, making sure that the people that we served were at the forefront and how we could make things better. I think now leaders of today have all of that to contend with, but the external environments, the external pressures, I think, are much more at the forefront. And whether that’s from things like really big, like climate change and how we respond to that, and that’s at the wider macro level, but even at a local level, where where communities are based, where they’re seeing the impact of floods. Say, for example, how do you tackle that big big issues and incidents? Even COVID back in back to 2020, dealing with those external factors. But then you also have the changing world we’re in and the impact of that. You have the dynamics around around the politics in the UK, we’ve had so many changes of leadership and therefore changes in direction. But as a global world, the changes that we’re seeing, the impact of AI, the the changing demographics. How do we how do we cater for and respond to changing needs of individuals working, living within our sectors and our communities, and how do we adapt as organisations to meet those needs? How do we tackle AI? What is that going to mean for the world as well as for our individual sectors? So suddenly, I think your the focus is much more on those external impacts and how that impacts on our people. People being the staff, being the people we serve, and I think it’s much more. I feel very much as if we’re in a period of transition at the moment, and we’re going from a world that we want. New into this new world, and we’re in that messy bit in the middle. We always talk about there being constant change, but it feels very much as if at the moment, a lot of that change is driven a lot more by external factors, a lot more than it ever was.
Jane Ide
Yes, I know. I know exactly what you mean, and I suppose I’m curious to know for yourself as a leader, and you’re a very you know I know you to be a very well connected, well networked leader. You know the other leaders that you know around you. How well equipped have you felt in these latter years to be a leader in this changing environment, and and how well do you think we as a sector are equipped? Where have we got gaps, and also where have we got strengths? Where have we got strengths that see us through this sort of environment?
Irene Sobowale
I think so. On a personal level, I know I felt very much in the latter half of my career. I very much felt I’ve always been a collaborative leader, and I’ve always very much worked with the people that worked with and for me, and so we worked collectively as a team and trying to tap into people’s strengths and their abilities. I think we need to do that ever more now because I think as I certainly I felt as I got older and I felt less connected perhaps than some of my younger colleagues who were much more of digital natives than I ever was, and so for me, for example, I’d always felt I was very up to date with technology, and I’m as an accountant very comfortable with working with spreadsheets and and technology office tools, and I’m very comfortable, and always felt I was very capable within that space. But the the acceleration and the changes over the last 10 to 15 years have been phenomenal. And trying to keep change, trying to keep pace with all of that change, alongside everything else you’re doing, I found personally I found that quite challenging. And I felt myself turning into my parents asking my children to, how do you do this? And can you just do that for me? Because it’s much quicker than me spending an hour trying to figure out how I automate something or things, technologies I’m perhaps not as comfortable with. So as a as an individual and and perhaps as a sector, we I think it’s composite. We absolutely have to. We need to be aware of where the gaps are, and be cognizant of how we then fill those gaps. And also, I think giving voice to people who have those skills and who have that ability to make sure that that comes through in the conversations that are being held now. It’s very easy within organisations to get stuck in structures and the senior leadership team, or the executive team, or the whichever teams are responsible for whatever area. And it’s just making sure that those voices that have the expertise, whatever level people are at, leadership is not just about the senior strata of an organisation. Let’s make sure those voices are coming through. Let’s make sure that input is felt, is heard, is integrated within the within an organisation. And sometimes I think organisational structures don’t necessarily lend themselves to that those conversations. So you have to make the space and ensure that that is happening, so that that knowledge and expertise does feed up almost sometimes, despite the regular, more usual lines of communication. So I do think we have, as a as a as a sector, I suspect that there are gaps in in our expertise. I think we absolutely should be thinking about engaging with the commercial sector, who are perhaps a bit more advanced, or thinking about partnership working, thinking about how we can leverage our skills and expertise because we have skills and expertise within the sector that the commercial sector absolutely would benefit from and want to tap into, and vice versa. So it becomes a symbiotic relationship between the two different groups. And thinking about how we learn from each other, how we don’t all individually, as organisations, all have to go through the same pain pain points and through the same processes. Yet share, I think we the sector was very good at talking about sharing, about working collaboratively. I think now it’s even more imperative that that happens and that that learning is done as a collective, as well as as individual organisations. But we’re able to learn off of each other and not have to all go through the every single step of the painful process of change, where there is the ability to to collaborate and work more jointly and benefit from each other’s. Each organisation’s abilities, learnings, expertise.
Jane Ide
I have to say, because I’ve been in the sector nearly 11 years now, and I have heard a lot in that time. A lot of people saying very similar things. You know, we we we should be better. We need to do that better. And yet somehow we never quite seem to do it. What what is it? What is it that’s getting in the way? What’s especially at a time like this, when actually you’re right that the need is perhaps greater than it’s ever been to pull resources, pull energies, whether that’s across the sector or whether that’s with other sectors. What what is it that’s actually stopping it? Do you think?
Irene Sobowale
Really, when you think about it, there’s there’s there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be happening, but like you, I got the sense that there was a lot of talk about it happening, and there were pockets of excellence where it actually does happen, but it’s not as widespread as it should be, and I wonder whether part of that is the sense, the obligation almost that people have to their organisations, and it’s very easy that the the agenda is so big, and normally the resource is not as big in terms of how we deliver on this. So you get sucked into the operational, the day to day, and even when you you’re thinking strategically, it tends to be about the organisation and the strategy of the organisation, rather than thinking as a collective. Perhaps there’s not enough collective time together in in thinking and working through issues, and maybe there’s a need for actually creating opportunities for those types of strategic conversations at a macro level, so organisations coming together and coming away with real actions from that, real takeaways or real learning. So it’s actually a proper learning set rather than just a conversation about what are the challenges facing the sector and how do we address them. I don’t know. It’s easy for me to sit back and say that now, but there is a. I do feel very strongly that there we have lots of ability and capability within the sector. I’m not sure that we bring it together as easily and as readily as we perhaps could.
Jane Ide
Yeah, and I and I think in a way that does touch on where we started this conversation about because I recognise what you say that that that people have perhaps they just haven’t got the bandwidth to do that and be doing the day job and it’s when you’re away from the day job whether it’s because you’ve been on leave for two weeks or because you’re on a sabbatical or whatever it is that you start to think that maybe these are things that that should be done but in a way that I think that also perhaps then taps into something else I wanted to explore with you because I think we’re we’re talking a lot obviously about how leadership has changed. One thing that I think really hasn’t changed, and I say this knowing that this is one of the founding reasons for a kilo to have been created 40 years ago, is that sense of isolation that that so many leaders can feel and can express-that they feel that they’re on their own, that it’s a very lonely job, you know, the cliche of it’s lonely at the top-that they are at that pinch point between a board on one side and a staff team on the other side. How how do you feel about that characterisation of of a leadership role is that is that does that chime with you or do you think perhaps the world has moved on from those sort of early days of the the lonely isolated leader who sits in their office by themselves trying to make all the decisions and nobody really quite understanding how hard it
Irene Sobowale
is. I think I think it does chime with me. I think exactly as you’ve described, that is still the structure typically within which most chief executives, boards, organisations within which they work. I think there is an an inevitability about being the chief exec, being the person in charge, so ultimately the box stops with you. So I think there will always be an element of it being lonely at the top, but I do think it leads on to the broader question of the relationship between the board, the chief exec, and the organisation in terms of where that, almost where that, not not not where the responsibility sits, but actually what the priorities are, because if you have if you have a chief exec in sitting effectively in the middle of that triumvirate, and you’re saying the board would have expectations of what their priorities are, if the board doesn’t see the relevance of prioritising that external collaboration and working with other organisations, and instead the focus is very much on the internal, then it’s quite difficult, as you say, for an individual to create that head. Or the bandwidth to actually segue into something that’s not on the list of objectives. It’s not a board and therefore organisational priority. And understandably, the board is thinking about the organisations, thinking about the long-term future and sustainability of that organisation. And that focus, their focus, therefore, is about that more shorter-term priority, more immediate, seen as a more immediate priority. And therefore, when you talk strategy at board meetings, it’s typically about the strategy for the organisation, not for the sector. So perhaps there’s something about even at the board level making sure that those kinds of conversations that chief executives are having are not necessarily replicated at the board because the responsibilities of the board are quite different, but just making sure that they’re more closely aligned, perhaps with or aware of perhaps some of those external challenges, which will give people the opportunity to spend time to create time to focus on on those areas. Now I say that I know a lot of the direction of an organisation comes from the chief executive, and they’re able to influence both ways. And I know there are lots of brilliant chief execs in the sector who do collaborate and do spend a lot more time focusing on the bigger picture, that system, systemic change, and and those deliverables, but I do think we probably need to, given where we are as a society, and given the challenges that we’re facing, perhaps more thought needs to be given to that systemic change, and and that becoming a priority for boards as well as for chief executives for organisations, to help us as collectively as a scientist spend a bit more time focusing on those areas.
Jane Ide
I think that’s a beautiful lead-in. Thank you to to the the next question that was in my mind, which is about I suppose it’s about the future of leadership in our sector, we’ve we’ve been looking backwards a little bit, but looking forward. And again, from your perspective, as somebody who’s currently outside of the day job and got that little bit more space to think about things, and obviously, as you say, thinking about your own next steps as well. Partly drawing on what you’ve just been saying about boards, I’m really interested to explore that a little bit more as well, but also specifically around the role of the chief executive. Where do you think we need to go next? What do you think will equip us to be in the right places for for whatever that future is? And obviously, none of us know, but from what we can see right now. And you talked about the pace of change. You talked about the technology. You’ve talked about the changing political climate. When you were talking about we’re in that messy bit of transition, I know exactly what you mean. And at the same time, there’s always a question in my back back of mind of actually, is this just it now? Is this always you know is it always going to be like this? So what what do you think we need to be looking for in in the next generation, the next couple of generations of leaders, in order to be well equipped for all of that?
Irene Sobowale
I think there is a lot. I think I think your question about is this it? I think perhaps it is it. I think certainly in the very short term, it absolutely is it. But I do think it is going to be a continuous evolution. I don’t think we know that. Even you know, 20 years ago, we were always talking about change and change being a constant. So that hasn’t changed. I think the pace of change, though, and the quantum of change across lots of different areas, and whether that’s the sociological changes, whether it’s you know we talk about the requirements of Gen Z being different from the baby boomers, and suddenly everything is almost everything has to be personalised. It’s about different experiences for different groups and how you integrate those. So in terms of the future, very much the the focus will obviously be on on agility, on the ability to collaborate and work with others. On the, you will always have the need to have people who are connected, so they’re very connected to the outside world, and recognising the whether it’s them as individuals or them as organisations can’t work, don’t work in a vacuum and therefore have to work with others. So I think there’s there’s a there’s obviously going to be a need for that. I think there’s going to be as it’s as you said, it’s quite difficult to to define what that change is going to be and therefore what we how or what we expect of our future leaders. But there is that inherent acceptance of change and being prepared to respond to that change and and having the ability to to think through what some of those changes are, or not to be and not to be afraid to be disruptive if you need to be disruptive, but also to be prepared to try. Things out and perhaps not get them right first time because we are people and you don’t always get things right first time. And but that’s okay. Recognising that we will need to be more fleet of foot and therefore things will be done differently. We don’t. We no longer will have the past necessarily to fall back on in terms of how we do things in the future, it’ll be very much more about that innovation, that creativity, that acceptance of things that are different, and looking for ways of doing things differently.
Jane Ide
I think that that phrase that’s going to stay with me. I mean that that that comment that we’re no longer going to have the past to to fall back on, that’s really powerful. I was I was already sort of starting to think as you were talking about where again where do boards sit in this and actually whether and this is a very unfair characterization and I know many many many boards are not like this but that that stereotypical board of older retired people who’ve got the time to volunteer. Who want to something back? Brilliant. Love the fact that they do. But actually, you know, how well equipped are our boards, and do we do we as chief executives who do play some part at least in in the recruitment and the shaping of our trustees, if only to make sure it actually happens sometimes, you know, how how are we thinking about what our boards need to be like in the future? And and that point about not being able to fall back on the past, I think, is a really profound one for people to be reflecting on, maybe as they’re listening to this. That yeah, that is definitely going to stay with me, I think. And and hang that one
Irene Sobowale
for three, Jen. Thank you,
Jane Ide
thank you. I will take that one. I will take that one. But at the same time, I also want to to make sure I don’t fall into the trap, and and you and I of similar age, of falling into that trap of well, we’re too old to to to to make those changes. That’s absolutely not the case at all. And I think we each of us has to find our way to being in the right space. I was talking to somebody recently about AI, and I said two years ago I was literally thinking it’s fine. I don’t need to worry about it. I’ll be retired before it’s an issue. And now I’m standing here feeling like I’m on a on a beach with a wave that’s just knocked me sideways because it’s come so fast, and there isn’t time to not be ready for it, is that?
Irene Sobowale
There isn’t, and and it’s that it’s that goes back to having that bandwidth to think beyond the here and now, and to be able to properly plan for, think about what the future looks like. At Brain Kind, I was lucky to have a board with a breadth of expertise, and I think a lot of organisations do this, where you’re looking at the gaps you have, you think you have on the board, and how you fill those gaps. But in reality, your board and the constitution of your board, you may well have technical experts on the board, but they’re on the board for a reason. They’re not part of the organisation, and I do think so. I do think that that thought about what skills are needed on the board is critical because it’s not just. Of course, it helps endlessly to have people with technical expertise, and most trustees are very, thankfully, very willing to offer off their expertise. But there’s a difference between having your in-house IT technologist and having somebody on the board with IT skills who gives you a broad overview. And so, thinking about actually, yes, you do need people with a variety of skills, but all and experience, but also it’s that mix as well, isn’t it? Of people who not necessarily just the technical skills, but that ability to help the board focus on perhaps the future to a certain extent, and to think beyond the here and now, be beyond what’s immediately facing the organisation with with a the structure of and the responsibilities of a board and trustees is around governance and strategy, and so there tends to be that default to those areas. And I think you can never lose sight of that broader, that bigger sense of where are we going as a society, not just us as an organisation, but how do we make sure that we’re ready for what’s coming, or that we are flexing and adapting, or accepting the recommendations from the executive to flex and adapt because of the changing environment, which Perhaps the board may not be as close to because, of course, it’s not their day job. So why would they be? They see it in their own through the lens of whatever expertise and experience they bring, but being able to tap into that as well because they have lots and lots of valuable experience to bring. So it’s always a. Balance is always a challenge and a balancing act.
Jane Ide
Yeah, but so very, very, very true. And so, just coming back then back to your own experience as a leader and and and and how you’ve experienced all of this. We’re talking. I mean, without wanting to fall into cliches, coming back to this recurring theme, it feels as though the pressures on leaders now are more obvious, more continuing, more challenging because there’s so many more of them coming from so many different directions, perhaps than there were even even when I started off as a leader, you know, 10 years ago, or whatever it was, it’s something I feel has changed. So, for you personally,
Irene Sobowale
yeah,
Jane Ide
other than taking your sabbatical and taking yourself off out of it, obviously, what what have you found have been the things that have helped you to stay grounded, to stay anchored, to stay in a space where you can be a leader and not be knocked sideways by this tidal wave of pressure that’s coming towards you.
Irene Sobowale
If I’m honest, Jane, I feel less of that pressure now for obvious reasons. I’m no longer in an executive role with those responsibilities, so I have less of that Immediate pressure to be abreast of everything that’s going on, but what I do find is in in having the opportunity to take a step back and to see what’s going on beyond perhaps the the narrow confines of the health and social space in which I operated previously, you get the opportunity to see the much bigger picture and to appreciate some of the challenges, opportunities, and threats that arise in the wider world. So, talking about staying grounded and being a leader, I think I I spend less less time focusing on what I need to do, be understand, learn as a leader, but much more about being connected into what’s going on in the wider world and the implications of that. I find myself thinking much more about some of those bigger challenges that we face as a society, for instance. And some of that is thrust right in front of you when going back to speaking about fires and holidays, and you know how that the world is changing around that, and the climate, just even the weather. You know the fact that we’ve had such hot weather this summer, and it’s been great not to have to think about working within within those conditions. However, there’s a reality that underpins that about actually what what do we how do we change? What do we need to do to accommodate that? What do the other things we need to be doing differently? And the broader conversations. So I find myself spending just thinking about some of those much bigger issues and much bigger challenges, and less on myself and how I remain grounded as a leader.
Jane Ide
And with that perspective that you have of having that more, I don’t know, bandwidths. I guess a bit more space to be thinking about these things. If you were to look back at yourself when you were in the day job, yes, or if you could have that conversation with your younger self, or if you were talking, as you are actually talking to an audience of of leaders who are, I should imagine, the majority of them are right in the middle of the day job. What what lesson or lessons would you share that actually people can can at least think about putting into practice now to remind them that you know sometimes you need that space. How how would you how would you advise somebody in a in a position like that now,
Irene Sobowale
far be it for me to be advising anyone. I think I think people will figure out what works best for them and how they can address some of the challenges. I do think that having the creating the bandwidth to perhaps think about some of these broader issues, and not necessarily doing it doing it on your own either, but having the conversations within the organisation and wider about some of these things that may not be immediate priorities for in your within your organisation or within your remit at the moment, but we know it’s coming. We know it’s round the corner. We don’t know what it looks like, what shape or form it may come in, but we know that we need to be ready. You spoke about being ready and being prepared for these ways. Of change that we know are coming, and I think it’s imperative that people do spend the time as a collective, not just as individuals, but thinking about and creating that bandwidth if they have to, and whether that’s upwards with the board to make sure that those conversations are happening, or within the organisation, bringing people together to make sure that you have the time and space to do that. The other thing I I I’ve been seeing a lot of commentary more widely around people’s mental health and their ability to deal with the changes, and whether that is on a personal level, whether that’s a challenging world position at the moment in terms of the politics, in terms of some of the challenges that the world is facing, recognising that you do need to take time out to look after yourself as well and look out for each other. I think we all put our heads down and just keep going and and want to keep going because there’s so much that needs to be done. It’s just remembering that yes, you’ve got the job to do. You do need to create the bandwidth to think beyond the immediate here and now. You also need to make sure you’re looking after yourselves as well because people’s. I think the factors which impact on people’s mental health seem to be again. We spoke about things being much more at the forefront. That is also there seems to certainly there certainly seem to be increasing incidents of mental health issues and concerns, and just making sure that we’re supporting people through that process as well.
Jane Ide
You may not want to give people advice, Irene, but you’re certainly sharing some very, very wise words there. I have to say, and very genuinely, very, very relevant ones. I think everything that you’ve been talking about about how to connect with others, how we can’t do this by ourselves, we don’t need to do, and we shouldn’t try and do this by ourselves. And particularly that last point about how we all have a responsibility to ourselves and to our organisations to to give ourselves that space to to to breathe and to to step away a little bit, and that point of yours about not having the past to fall back on, I’m definitely going to be thinking about that one a lot. I think as we as we carry on with our days, sadly we’ve run out of time, and it’s time to draw this to a close, which is a real shame because it’s. I could have. I could have carried on talking to you for hours. But before we finally finish up, because this is the format of the the podcast series, I won’t be here for the next one. You will be hosting the next podcast, the next episode. Can you just introduce the guest that you’re going to be talking to in our next podcast episode? And if you know yet, any thoughts you might have about what question you might want to be asking them?
Irene Sobowale
Well, I am looking forward to being in your seat, Jane, and asking all the questions. But I will be speaking to Lee Webster now. Lee is the deputy chief executive at Respect. I we never met; our paths never crossed whilst I was working. But I’m really looking forward to speaking to her and finding out about how she is navigating these current challenges. Some of the things that we’ve just spoken about. I think it’s now. I feel as a as a as an elder stateswoman able to sit back and speak to the the next generation of leaders or people who are still in leadership roles to understand how they are actually dealing with some of these practical challenges. And I’ll be very interested to speak to Lee and find out how she is addressing some of these concerns and her thoughts about what the next 2345, years might look like and how she’s preparing herself for the coming change that will inevitably be part of that future.
Jane Ide
I can’t wait. I have to say I am really looking forward to hearing that conversation. For now, thank you so much, Irene. We really appreciate you giving us our time, your time today. And yeah, I’m looking forward to hearing the next episode. Thank you very much.
Irene Sobowale
Thank you, Jane. Nice seeing you again.