Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Vicky Browning talks to civil society CEOs about their careers, their experiences and what leadership means to them.
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In this episode, Vicky speaks to Tessy Ojo, chief executive at The Diana Award, a charity that builds on Princess Diana’s belief that young people can change the world. They talk about the hope the next generation of leaders offers, why it’s OK to drop a ball when we need to, and how Beyoncé gives the best leadership advice.
Vicky Browning [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Vicky Browning chief executive of ACEVO, the network for charity and civil society leaders. Welcome to Leadership worth sharing, a podcast in which I talk to civil society chief execs about their careers, their experiences and what leadership means to them. Today I’m speaking to Tessy Ojo, chief executive at The Diana Award, a charity that builds on Princess Diana’s belief that young people can change the world. We talk about the hope the next generation of leaders offers, why it’s OK to drop a ball when we need to, and how Beyoncé gives the best leadership advice.
Hi Tessy! Thank you so much for coming in and joining us today. It’s lovely to see you.
Tessy Ojo [00:00:03] Thank you for having me.
Vicky Browning [00:00:05] It’s great pleasure. I just want to start off about you and your background. Where you’ve come to get to The Diana Award. You have a degree in biochemistry.
Tessy Ojo [00:00:14] This is true.
Vicky Browning [00:00:14] You spent 10 years initially working in the corporate sector for businesses like IBM and Balfour Beatty. So what brought you to The Diana Award and to the charity sector?
Tessy Ojo [00:00:26] Yes. So I joined the charity sector about 19 years ago. And really for me… When I had my oldest child I went back to work pretty quickly. At the time you only had 12 weeks maternity leave. And I remember thinking that’s really rubbish. I wanted to spend a bit more time with my daughter. About two years after I had my youngest child. And at the time I felt like the maternity structure had slightly changed, you could ask for up to six months off. I think that was only the first three months was paid for the other three months wasn’t. But at least I could have that additional time when my daughter was just under two. It was coming up to her second birthday. So that was my plan. I planned that I was going to spend a good six months at home being a mum to these two wonderful kids.
Tessy Ojo [00:01:08] I knew from that… from the moment he was given to me… Slightly different from when I had my daughter with the overwhelming “Oh my God I’m a parent” to this little boy being placed in my hands. Now I’m thinking, how incredibly blessed are we as a family to have these two, these gifts. But also with that overwhelming feeling I knew that I was going to be that parent who will champion them. I just knew that the focus of my life would change because my role in life suddenly began, became “I’m going to be the champion for these kids, like I’m going to be that mum that will knock down walls, I will be annoying to every head teacher of the school the went to, because I’ll be that parent in PTA that says Hey I’m here”. And I just had that overwhelming sense of responsibility, of gratitude and all those things mixed together.
Tessy Ojo [00:02:00] But I remember just before I left the hospital, just before I left I realised that there were thousands and thousands of kids being born in this year of 2000 because of all of the millennium kids and stuff. And I really, I wondered if every child had someone who had made the commitment for them as well. And as I went home and it really bugged me that… Did every girl have a champion like my girl had? And every boy have a champion? And that kind of led me onto this whole path. I had no idea what it was. I just knew I had this overwhelming sense of responsibility that I needed to be a champion and advocate much more than just my girl and my boy.
Tessy Ojo [00:02:43] And I began this whole journey of exploration of trying to think: what is this? What is this sense of restlessness that I feel? What is this sense of commitment that overwhelms me even when I try to shut it down? And at one point I put it down to you know new mother kind of stuff but it just wouldn’t go. I remember thinking right, I know what I’m going to do I’m going to volunteer for a charity. Because my mum was a head teacher and when I was younger my whole life was around volunteering and working with children and young people. And I remember writing at the time to the Department of Education and thinking that the only place I knew I could write to. And I sent my CV and said hey I don’t know if my skills are relevant but if they are please what do I do?
Vicky Browning [00:03:27] I love the fact that most of us would start thinking of volunteering, might get us to the local Scout group. You wrote to the DFE, here am I, what do you need? That’s fantastic!
Tessy Ojo [00:03:33] That was the only thing that made sense. Why don’t I just go to the department responsible? I guess with my corporate background if you wanted something you went to…
Vicky Browning [00:03:46] Yeah.
Tessy Ojo [00:03:47] You just went… and I got this letter back that sent me a link to the charities and said why don’t you be a board member? And I looked it up a bit and I thought actually that… For some reason that didn’t feel like what…
Vicky Browning [00:04:02] Not direct enough.
Tessy Ojo [00:04:03] Being a board member, how do I champion, what does that mean? I had no… And I thought I’m just going to pack this for a while and I did but it was coming to the end of my maternity leave but I just didn’t feel like I should go back just yet. So I wrote again to my employers and I said “Can I please have an additional three months” making a whole nine months. And they said that’s fine. I thought, look I’ve got time and I’ve got about five… I’ve got to make this work. It was really really random but one day I was flipping through… My husband… At the time there wasn’t that much internet, reading the news on Twitter, no such thing, you know. My husband would have gone out to work and would come back with all of the newspapers from the day.
Tessy Ojo [00:04:47] And so in the evenings I just enjoy sitting down, he had the kids in the evening and I was just my turn to go through the papers. And I saw an advert. It just said “A new youth charity had been set up” and needed someone to help run the systems. Now my role at IBM at the time was I was a big systems analyst and we were a team of business and systems analyst. And that word systems caught my attention because for the first time I thought oh my gosh, charities needed a systems person. Oh my God. I thought my goodness I’m glad… It was just a P.O. box and I thught I’m just going to write to that charity and tell them, “Look I’ve got five months, let me do it for you I’ll do you free. Don’t pay me anything blah blah.”
Tessy Ojo [00:05:37] I wrote to the charity, they wrote back and said “no, you know, it’s a job you need to apply for it”. To cut the long story short I was offered the role and I thought there’s no way I’m going to accept this role. Firstly it was a huge, thousands of pounds pay cut, no pension, absolutely nothing. I remember waking up the middle of night and say to my husband “I think I’ve got to do this” and I had a feeling that I would not be happy if I didn’t do it. And he said “look, we will make it work”. And at that time I thought well if I just took it… In my head I thought what if I said yes. I still got five months. And I don’t technically resign from my other role in five months I could just…
Vicky Browning [00:06:55] Sorry about that, it was a terrible mistake.
Tessy Ojo [00:06:55] Exactly and just go back. But again knowing me I knew that I had to, if I was going to do this I needed to cut the ties and burn the bridge and just do it. And that’s what I did.
Vicky Browning [00:07:07] So tell me a bit about The Diana Award. So it’s a youth charity set up in honour of Princess Diana.
Tessy Ojo [00:07:12] Yes.
Vicky Browning [00:07:13] Just tell me a little bit about what the organisation does.
Tessy Ojo [00:07:15] Yes. So The Diana Award is a charity legacy to Princess Diana’s belief that young people with the right support can change the world. And so our mission is really to inspire, to nurture and to create positive change in the lives of young people; is helping in the simplest form is helping every young person thrive. Really helping tackle those multiple disadvantages that they face. And it’s looking at how do we help every young person build the social equity they need to thrive. And for some young people what they need is leadership skills. And so we run a leadership development programme. One in two young people in the UK face bullying in school. If we can effectively help them tackle that, that then puts them back on the road to thrive. And for some other people it’s just the various multiple disadvantages like might be poverty, might be just moving countries and what they need is something that stabilizes them in their new setting. So we run a mentoring programme that really places an adult from the place of work. And we are really particular about making sure it’s an adult from the place of work. We place them with the young person, and it’s about helping that young person build character, build the key skills they need to thrive. But also one of the things we’re passionate about is allowing young people… To help them build their own skills through youth social action. So all of our programmes are underpinned by youth social action, making sure that in the process of helping young people thrive they are also building their own capacity to do good.
Vicky Browning [00:08:45] So it fits in right… Completely with that sense you’ve had with the birth of your son that you wanted to champion not just your children but all children. But also, as any good parent, enable them to do their own, you know, create their own lives.
Tessy Ojo [00:08:59] Absolutely. And that’s to us is about that’s the way to create change. You know, you’re not… You’re giving young people the tools to make it happen. You’re also building their own capacity.
Vicky Browning [00:09:09] And, I mean, you talked about leadership development for young people. Obviously that’s something close to my heart as running ACEVO. But looking at The Diana Award itself. The kind of three key words that you use, kind of the motto of the organisation is encourage, empower and engage. How do you think you have taken those three words and expressed them in your own leadership style? How do you model that to the leaders of tomorrow who you are helping to develop?
Tessy Ojo [00:09:41] I always see leadership as a privilege. It’s always a privilege to guide people. To set the tone and to allow people understand that they matter. To me, leadership is about the collective. It’s not about one person fixing things. It’s about creating the right ecosystem for everyone to thrive. And so at The Diana Award I believe in how do I create the ecosystem that allows every member of my team to see that they have a role to play in driving the vision, and in achieving our objectives and just making change happen for young person? And I want every member of our team to feel connected to the changes that we see and so when we see change happen we celebrate. Firstly we always celebrate. Everyone understands the milestones that we’re achieving. Everyone is involved in that. Like I said it’s about the collective. I hope that one of the things I do is to role model the principles that we believe in and in role modelling that, people understand that it’s not just… We don’t just talk the talk we walk the walk as well. But one of the things we did a few years ago was to set our organisational culture. What’s the culture, what’s our value as an organisation? And things like, right from integrity to passion to collaboration to ambition. And ambition is important for everyone particularly as a leader. Now, ambition is different for different people. For some people ambition is to change the world and for some others ambition is just to be a better person. As a leader, my role is to constantly encourage and be sure to allow people to see what does success look like for you in this organisation? In the next, over the next six months. Over the next year. And how can we help you achieve that? In the sector we don’t always… We don’t have the funds to compete with the big players especially as a smaller charity. You don’t have the funds. However what we look for is how can we help build your expertise. How can we make you better than when you came in. That’s one of the things that we do and that’s for us is about how can we get everyone engaged in this space. Because I truly believe if you’ve come to work we us it means that: one, you’re passionate about young people. So you need to be part of that collective that really drives change for young people. What else…
Vicky Browning [00:11:58] Well I’m interested in the young people as well and your view of them because at the moment, you know, it’s quite a, we’re in quite a turbulent time. A lot going on politically, there is a lot of uncertainty. And some people have different views about how positive they are about the future. When you see the young people that you work with coming through, does that give you hope for the future?
Tessy Ojo [00:12:21] Oh my goodness. I tell you what. I always say, when we have events with young people I always say I’m so grateful that I have that view. I’m so grateful I get to… Because they fill me with so much hope. Young people are incredibly resilient, young people have a sense of… A sense of hope. They cut through the mess. Sometimes, sometimes we, I think sometimes as adults we are bogged down with the logistics of the mess. Whilst young people would ask the question why can’t we do X and we’ll find a way. So I am always, especially when we have awards ceremonies and you hear of incredible stories of young people who are achieving that gains or to have absolutely nothing yet create, yet create this incredible legacy you know or have raised thousands of pounds and you see yourself as a charity leader you think I struggle to raise X Y , why can’t I just get this young people in, fills me with so much hope. One of the things we say is if this young person with very little support can achieve X we need to add value to them. How can we help them skill that? How can we nurture those skills that they are demonstrating at age 11, 12, 13? If we can help, nurture and support that young person they will become incredible leaders. They’re already leaders but we can only amplify what they are already doing. So, I think I’m so grateful that I work with young people because they give that view that we don’t often see.
Vicky Browning [00:14:01] You… Obviously running The Diana Award you must have a lot to do with the royals.
Tessy Ojo [00:14:06] Yes.
Vicky Browning [00:14:08] It’s Wills and Harry’s.. their mum’s charity.
Tessy Ojo [00:14:09] Yes.
Vicky Browning [00:14:10] How do you… What are your… How do you find working with with them, with the royal family? You know, as much as you can tell me on a public podcast.
Tessy Ojo [00:14:20] Number one rule is confidentiality!
Vicky Browning [00:14:24] Hardly anybody listening! Y.
Tessy Ojo [00:14:27] You know it’s such an honour. Sometimes when I’m home or with my friends I always say whose crazy life is this? It’s such an incredible honour. And it makes me… It’s a legacy and it makes me very precious, I’m very precious about it. Understanding that you have, we have a responsibility to almost look after the legacy of someone who is a very loved Princess. Someone who, you know, in today’s world is still referred to as the people’s princess. And it’s such a huge honour and such a responsibility and it’s, you know, it’s one that I’m constantly, I’m grateful that we’re able to do the work that we do. Always grateful to have the support of Their Royal Highenesses.
Vicky Browning [00:15:05] They do actually seem genuinely committed to the causes they’ve chosen to support.
Tessy Ojo [00:15:10] Oh absolutely. They are so… And I don’t say this because I work with them but I’ve seen how passionate they are about people, how they care about service and how they genuinely want to get things right. I remember very early on in my time as chief exec, one of the things I was constantly told by them is “don’t invite us to do stuff that… We’re not poster boys”. In that sense “we’re not going to do things that are meaningless. And so please don’t even involve us in something that hasn’t got… That isn’t thought through properly, that has a massive impact”.
Vicky Browning [00:15:45] Something with real purpose to.
Tessy Ojo [00:15:46] Yeah absolutely. And that’s something I’ve always thought about and every time we are planning things and we are always careful to think… I mean not that we would ever do anything for the cameras. Obviously not. But we’re really thoughtful about what should we be doing.
Vicky Browning [00:16:00] What’s the biggest impact that they can have.
Tessy Ojo [00:16:04] Absolutely.
Vicky Browning [00:16:04] And it’s, I mean, it’s a high profile organisation. You know, obviously anything that Wills and Harry turn up to, anything that’s got Diana’s name to it, it’s gonna be… People are really interested in it. How do you cope as chief executive living under that sort of level of scrutiny and public interest?
Tessy Ojo [00:16:21] Three things that I hold precious. It’s transparency, accountability and just being authentic in the very basic sense. This is me. There isn’t two versions of me. But having said that, there is also the need to have clear boundaries, to understand that there’s some bits of my life that’s going to be private. And especially when my kids were younger. There are bits that I don’t want to talk about my kids on social or… But it was important for me to set boundaries and to say look I’m going to be as transparent as I can. I’m going to live an authentic life. You’re never going to catch me doing anything that I shouldn’t be doing because that’s just not me. However, I will set the right boundaries. And it was important for my family particularly my husband to discuss what those boundaries are so that they felt involved in everything I was doing. I think it’s important to constantly just check those boundaries so that you have a degree of privacy and you have that private life. And I guess these days of social media like you almost… There is that sense of I don’t want to say pressure because it’s not pressure… You almost need to have a 360 view of your life but you have to kind of be careful of those boundaries.
Vicky Browning [00:17:34] You’re a woman of faith as well, aren’t you? How is that, how your Christian beliefs shaped the way you approach your career and the way you lead?
Tessy Ojo [00:17:42] I mean there’s two things that my Christian faith has taught me all my life. Firstly to love unconditionally, like, to be crazy in love with life. It’s a privilege to be here. Every one who’s here. It’s your birthright, once you’re here you’re here. It’s your birthright. And it’s, you know, to love every, to love people genuinely and not to pay lip service to it. And I think the other bit is is to live purposefully. To always have, be purposeful, be intentional and for me life is a gift. You’ve been gifted it and so use it wisely. And if not, why are you here? You know, you’re not, I’m not better than anyone who’s not here. If I’m here I should make the most of it.
Vicky Browning [00:18:28] And you’re obviously a woman and a woman of colour and we’re living in a world where in principle we’re all trying to get more diverse and inclusive. But we were having a conversation, you and I were having a conversation a couple of weeks ago about a head-hunter saying to you “oh gosh women are so in demand” and you know is this bringing an extra pressure on us as women leaders? And how do we stop that sort of sense of women as the next next lot of heroes? And also how do we stop a kind of tokenistic approach to diversity that says “oh OK look because you look like this we’ll take you on and it doesn’t really matter to us who you are or what you like”. We’ll just take you because you tick that box.
Tessy Ojo [00:19:07] I think a first challenge would be to organisations and companies to first understand what diversity is. And let’s, let’s not get crazy trying to be tokenistic. Let’s not set people up to fail because we are just, we are setting bad examples. Firstly understand what diversity… Understand the benefits of diversity. I think increasingly people have a sense of what, of why diversity is important but I think yes because I’ve had that experience when you just know this call is completely tokenistic and has nothing to do with my skills whatsoever. That upsets me hugely. But I think we’ve come a long way. I think we, women are more visible and that’s a good thing. I think we’ve always played second fiddle we’ve allways really struggled to get our voices heard or to be on the top tables. To be in a place where women are on the top table I completely welcome that. I applaud that. Next step is to really make it valued, make it meaningful. We advocate for youth voice and youth participation. We do that so that it’s not tokenistic and it’s meaningful participation. Same rules apply. Why do you need a diverse audience? Why do you need to adapt your workplace to be diverse? And if you understand the why then please meaningfully seek the people who would add value. Do not do it just for the tick box because what you end up doing is you are leaving people with a bad experience. It’s like asking me to be, I don’t know, to be a basketballer because I’ve got the height. I can’t be rubbish. And I’ll be setting an example. That’s a wrong example. And that becomes a standard. People will judge other people like me so make it meaningful.
Vicky Browning [00:20:51] How do we as women leaders… What’s our role in bringing up the next generation of women? What do we, you know, sort of enabling people to come behind us?
Tessy Ojo [00:21:01] You know one of the things that we do at The Diana Award, we completely believe in mentoring. I personally think that mentoring changes a trajectory for anyone. When I first became a chief exec I wrote to someone who I’d admired for so many years and I said “I’m not asking for a whole lot of your time because I understand how busy you are but twice a year would you have coffee with me just so I can talk to you about what I’m thinking what I’m doing”. And I find, I found that really really useful and meaningful. I think ’cause female leaders we… owe I would say… I believe that we owe it to the next generation to invest in them. I’m going to quote from Beyonce. I know it’s a bit ridiculous. I know.
Vicky Browning [00:21:45] Can you sing it?
Tessy Ojo [00:21:46] No. But there’s something that she says in a song that says I’ll be the roots and you’ll be the tree. I really love that because it makes me think that if I’m the root then I feed because I’m down, I’m here. I will be the root. And you can just grow off me. And it says something about… I will not show you, I’ll invest in you and I want you to grow. And I see, I think that we owe it to the sisterhood. If I’m allowed to use that word. But we owe it to the next generation to invest. If it’s twice a year whatever. Like look out for those leaders coming behind and and give back. One of Princess Diana’s famous causes is also that everyone has value and everyone has the potential to give back. And if I put these two together it makes me think actually I owe it to the next generation to constantly invest, to give back so that they have a place at the table as well. Like I said it’s great that we’re looking and talking about equality and diversity. But we need to constantly invest. One of the things I battled with when I was younger, when my kids were younger, as a chief exec was… For many years I didn’t want to be chief exec purely because I thought gosh I’m a mum. How do I juggle this? I have all of this expectation that I have to be at every parent evening, I have to stay back and start homework. I had to do X I had to be the mum that dropped at the school gates. I thought that I was going to be a failure if I wasn’t doing all of that. And no one told me about, no one told me it was OK to drop a ball. And I taught myself. Actually do you know what, I can drop a ball as long as I’m dropping it intentionally and I can pick it.
Tessy Ojo [00:23:37] I remember one my first… The first time I was going to miss a parent evening I was absolutely gutted. I kept thinking gosh, the teacher will think I’m irresponsible. So I just wrote to the teacher beforehand and I said “Can I come and see you in a different day? Is there any way you can just exempt us from this? And I can come and see you…?” And I just… actually we can always rejig things. Everything is movable. It’s just dialogue and sometimes you don’t know this until someone tells you. And that’s why I think that we owe to the next set of leaders, to females, to really say look I’m not saying you can’t have it all but don’t check out before your time. At least let me be your root and you can grow off me. Now, the level at which you want to grow it’s down to you. But at least let me be your root. And I really, I really feel that’s important and I feel like a lot of other female leaders need to look at that and never be threatened. I’ve heard people feeling a bit threatened by “Oh I’m not sure you can cope with a female leader. I’m not sure I can cope with other females”… really?
Vicky Browning [00:24:42] You’re very positive, you’re very passionate. You’ve got lots of hope. You’ve got lots of, you know, your exposure to young people gives you that sense of energy. What worries you about the sector or civil society going forward? What are the things that concern you?
Tessy Ojo [00:24:57] So I’m privileged to be, to be on various boards. So beyond The Diana Award I sit on the Comic Relief trustee board, I sit in the BBC board, I sit on various boards and a couple of other local charities in Kent. And there’s a few things that really worry me. It worries me about a maybe trust in the sector. It worries me that would we regain enough public trust. Would we lose talent as a result? It worries me about our own funding and how would we sort, how would we drive the change that we need if we have reduced trust from the public? Sometimes I do think that if I was going to come to the sector now with everything that I know would I come in? And that’s a big question. I don’t know the answer. I think the sector is a lot more… It’s under a lot more scrutiny. Rightly so. I wish we would get the balance right. I know that we need the scrutiny. I think that’s important because lots of things have been kind of not talked about, not brought to the open. That sense of how do we as a sector be accountable to ourselves and make sure that we are transparent. We do all the things that we say that we would do so that people trust us. How do we get that right? But for ourselves so that we can build that trust externally.
Vicky Browning [00:26:15] But without losing the sight of all the amazing things we do as organisations.
Tessy Ojo [00:26:19] Absolutely. Because sometimes you end up hearing about the negative and we don’t… the good things that happens in the sector is not newsworthy. And I say that, you know, it’s not newsworthy enough for the press sometimes to talk about. So what the public ends up hearing are the negative and not really the positive stories. And there’s a lot of incredible stuff happening in the sector. How do we get the balance? And please let’s call out the negatives. It’s important but I wish we would have both sides of the stories. Because that’s what happens in the real world. We hear both sides of the stories in the real world. But when a sector is full of just the negative then it really kind of screws the public’s view of that.
Vicky Browning [00:27:02] You talked about in The Diana Award you do a lot of celebrating. Of success. Maybe we need to celebrate more.
Tessy Ojo [00:27:08] Absolutely. Absolutely we need to celebrate it internally like… I mean I probably am not the person who said it. I’ve heard this great thing and I said often that when you’re winning you need champagne but when you lose you deserve champagne. You really deserve it. Exactly. And it talks about… you celebrate everything as a said let’s celebrate. You know, just getting that funding bid in is enough to say oh I’ve got the bid in finally. It’s about having the culture of celebration because that’s why we’re here. We’re here to see change. And when you see the need to change let’s celebrate the big and the small. I really feel that we need that balance between both. I feel that even on social I’m constantly going the extra mile to talk up, to be accountable and to be transparent because I want people to trust that we will use the penny exactly how we said we would use it.
Vicky Browning [00:28:01] And that’s our role as leaders. One of the key roles is to model that level of transparency, accountability and positivity.
Tessy Ojo [00:28:08] Absolutely. Absolutely.
Vicky Browning [00:28:10] And you’ve been at The Diana Award for a decade…more?
Tessy Ojo [00:28:13] A bit more.
Vicky Browning [00:28:14] Twelve years, something like that.
Tessy Ojo [00:28:16] Yes, yes.
Vicky Browning [00:28:16] What’s next for you then and do you think in your leadership adventure?
Tessy Ojo [00:28:20] You know I will always be where young people are. I think that’s my mission. To champion young people. And as long as I can constantly… we can create this room to do that as the DA then I’m happy. And I think the DA will always champion young people. That’s where I’ll be, and even in my retired years and days I’ll probably be that person who comes in and say is there anything I can do to help you? You know. Yeah, I think my life revolves around young people. They are incredible. I love the fact that they give me a better view of the world and I love that view as I’m just going to stick with that view and try to be in the adult world properly. But yeah I’m passionate about young people and driving change and as long as there’s a role there I’ll be there. I do love being involved in lots of other sectors. Lots of other areas. My work at Comic is around safeguarding of young people internationally but also looking at governance. I love… I know it sounds really really boring but given my… I guess given my background, my MBA and all of that I do look at structures. How do you create the right ecosystem and the right structure that allows you to connect with your mission statements. And allows you to achieve what you set out to achieve. So charity governance is another bit that’s… I kind of enjoy, I don’t know why.
Vicky Browning [00:29:42] Back to your systems…
Tessy Ojo [00:29:45] Yes yes yes.
Vicky Browning [00:29:47] Yeah yeah yeah yeah, comes full circle. So young people and structure. And you’re happy.
Tessy Ojo [00:29:51] Yeah. I’m happy.
Vicky Browning [00:29:52] That’s brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us. I really enjoyed talking to you, Tessy. It’s been brilliant. Thank you so much. It’s been great.
Tessy Ojo [00:29:58] Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this and I still have my cup of tea. So thank you.
Vicky Browning [00:30:15] This was Leadership Worth Sharing, the podcast by and for civil society leaders. Thanks for listening and we’ll meet again in a few weeks! If you want to know more about ACEVO, check our website acevo.org.uk (that’s a c e v o dot org dot uk) and follow us on Twitter, twitter dot com slash acevo. Bye!