Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Jane Ide chats with civil society leaders about their professional experiences, challenges, wellbeing, and their journeys in the sector.
In this episode, ACEVO chief exec Jane Ide welcomes Mark Norbury as the newly appointed chair of the board. They talk about Mark’s path to becoming ACEVO’s chair and the CEO of UnLtd, the UK’s leading foundation for social entrepreneurs. Mark reflects on nurturing the chair/CEO relationship and shares his thoughts on bringing out the best in each other.
Transcript
Jane Ide 00:00
So today is something of a bookend with our last podcast when I spoke with Rosie Ferguson, our outgoing chair, as today, I am joined by our newly appointed and very freshly arrived chair, Mark Norbury. Mark is Chief Executive of UnLtd, the UK’s leading foundation for Social Entrepreneurs. He’s an experienced chair. He has a long career behind him in education, healthcare and social entrepreneurship. Mark, welcome, firstly to our podcast and to ACEVO and to the, I hope, exciting new role of being our Chair.
Mark Norbury 00:35
Thank you so much. Jane, yeah, I’m delighted to have joined ACEVO to be chair and to be working so closely with you. Yeah, it’s it’s a real joy.
Jane Ide 00:45
It’s great to have you with us. And I’m really looking forward to exploring a little bit with you, for our listeners and our members, a bit more about your thinking about the chair role generally, and governance in our sector. But can we start off, perhaps just by telling us a little bit about yourself, about your career, your pathway into leadership, and what took you ultimately to UnLtd
Mark Norbury 01:10
Yeah, sure. I was very lucky. I grew up in a loving family in Surrey. We had materially what we needed. My parents were fair and honest and loving and caring and generous, and it wasn’t all sweetness and light. There were challenges. My mum lived with severe depression, and that was formative, and it was part of why I got into civil society in my career, because when you understand how kind of someone experiences depression, and the empathy that it generates, the compassion that it stimulates, and I then went on to experience myself is vital in how one thinks about wanting to make a difference and making meaning in the world, partly because of my mum’s depression, we went away for school. We went to boarding school, and that was really where I got a social awareness. And there was so much wealth and privilege and entitlement there that I just it was so obviously unfair and unhealthy and dysfunctional. And I thought, right, we could, I’ve got to try and do something about this at school that that involved me volunteering in the local community and raising funds for for charities. But like most teenagers, I was also trying to figure things out. I was trying to understand life, meaning, uh, why we’re here all those good things and grappling, I guess, with my first experiences of real kind of existential angst and depression and so forth. And as I grappled with that, I was trying to figure things out. I went on to University where I studied psychology and philosophy, and throughout I kept on fundraising. So I was a good old street collector. I got involved in the university student fundraising. I helped run that. And I always thought that I wanted to be a bridge between those with and without wealth and power. And so I started volunteering the Red Cross. Then I got a job there in the events team, and I worked in a range of UK charities, mainly in fundraising marketing, effectively creating my own equivalent of a graduate training scheme. And after about five, six years, I was where I wanted to branch out. I had many friends in business, and I was often creating partnerships with business, and I was intrigued by what business could achieve at scale. And I was also, I’ve been mainly focused on the UK, and I was very conscious of the world beyond the UK. And I went, got an opportunity to go and work at the Global Business School. INSEAD as part of the leadership of a big 100 million euro campaign called the Business School for the world. And I was raising funds with from US UK Dutch businesses and alumni, and I learned just a huge amount about international markets, entrepreneurial leadership. You know the role business plays in solving issues, as well as creating issues and but also cross cultural, people management. I ended up doing my an executive MBA there and and was invited to lead that program after I graduated, and that meant spending a lot of time in China and Singapore as well, while we were living in France. And I just loved the the culture of diversity and the richness that offered, but also the learning, the kind of the intellectual challenge, but not just intellectual. All experiential and kind of reflective challenge. There was really good kind of coaching work that went on. Had Action Learning sets and so on. And I ended up there helping set up the Center for Social Innovation and Europe and Asia’s first social enterprise executive program. And all of these experiences kind of work together to really reinforce, for me, the power of purpose driven leadership and and I guess that has been the golden thread behind most of my career and choices, and it was really reflected in in what I did next? So I joined a fantastic social enterprise called leaders quest. Leaders quest had a partnership within siad, and we take groups of business, civil society, government leaders, out to the emerging powers, Brazil, China, India, Russia, South Africa and elsewhere. And the point was to kind of meet leaders from across many different sectors who are all in different ways, engaged in the progress of their country and of leadership. And so we meet people from finance, tech, health, education, culture, the environment and from private, public, nonprofit, and the most transformational experiences were always the charity and social enterprise visits. But it was a full on role. You know, the stresses and strains of kind of running these programs, 24/7 with logistics spanning continents and and the work itself being incredibly intense and reflective and emotionally draining. You know, I was just aware that by this stage, my wife and I had three kids, and I felt I was away too much. I was an absentee parent and partner, and wanted to do better on that front. And also, I thought it was the right time for me to try and be a Chief Exec. And so I wanted to focus on a UK cause. And so I moved to the NHS charity, Chelsea Westminster Foundation Trust, their charity. And, you know, when I arrived, we were we had an endowment, and we were raising a small amount, and we we grew how much we were raising tenfold in a few years. And we also got some experience in social investment with the work we were supporting around clinical innovation. And I was continuing my engagement with social enterprise through being on the board of bridges, ventures Foundation, and so when the UnLtd opportunity came up, I thought, I’ve got to go for this. It’s everything I love about purpose driven leadership. It’s a fantastic organization, and I’m going to be enabling and harnessing the entrepreneurial leadership of hundreds of social entrepreneurs every year, and this just feels right to me. And so it’s proved. And eight and a half years later, I’m still there.
Jane Ide 08:09
So it sounds like a good a good place for you to be, but I wondered if I could just, I wanted to just explore something that you touched on quite and you’ve been very honest and very open about your privilege, about your privileged background. You obviously are very aware that at kivo, we do, or we strive to do, a lot of work to drive a much more equitable, much more diverse, much more inclusive, genuinely anti racist sector, we have a long, long way to go on that. So I just wanted to just ask you to perhaps on thread that a little bit in terms of how, how you use that awareness of your own privilege, but in that context of the challenges that we have as a sector to actually make the leadership of our sector much more reflective of the community that it should be serving.
Mark Norbury 09:07
Where I’ve done that most fully is at UnLtd and I’ve done it through learning from others and understanding more about my privilege, not just in terms of financial background, but being white, being male, be straight, and recognizing I had a lot of unconscious bias, assumptions, preconceptions that I needed to understand and sort out. And at unlimited I was given the opportunity, and people were patient. You know, when I started in 2016 Well, one of the things I wanted to do is understand how inclusive we were. In 2017 we got research back that showed that we weren’t doing as. As we should with black social entrepreneurs and disabled social entrepreneurs in a variety of different ways. And so we changed our application process, we changed our outreach, we changed a whole bunch of what we did in terms of our support offer, and that work was led by people of color, by disabled people, social entrepreneurs, the team volunteers and my role was to understand, to back that work, to support it to the hilt, and to make sure it went through and it happened and we delivered and exceeded expectations. We focused really on lived experience and the power of lived experience, because that we felt was common to all founders and communities who minoritized and marginalized. And I think that was good work, but it wasn’t good enough. And what we realized in 2020 was that that broad focus on lived experience that was really helpful to us, but it wasn’t really helpful for founders from different communities, and we needed to go deeper on race. We need to go deeper on disability and different protected characteristics, and also increasingly socio economics and geographic variation and so forth and so that’s what we did. We had an equity audit, independent equity audit, actually the person who chairs unlimited nominations, remuneration and Governance Committee. Now I got to know just prior to that, and she, Vanessa, led our equity audit and did a fantastic job. It was hard hitting. It was punchy as it should be, and it told us that there was a lot of bias. Basically, we were set up as an organization of supposedly liberal progressive graduates, dada, dada, and we overvalued learned experience, and we habituated to kind of lots of ways of doing Things that were suddenly but powerfully discriminatory and exclusive, and we needed to unlearn all of that and change. And we did, and what was important is, when we got the equity audit that we figured out across the team how we wanted to address this, that we were accountable for the fact that we had were reflecting this kind of unconscious bias, and that we need to resolve that and be the most effective allies we could be. And that’s how that’s a long way around of answering what I think my role, my role is to be the most effective ally I can there is wealth and power, discrimination and bias, and if I can help shift that, without putting myself, without benefiting from that in a neutral way that is as efficient and understanding and thoughtful as possible, so that money and power gets to people who have The lived expertise to make a difference in our communities, then that is what I need to do, and that is the leadership role I can play. I felt really guilty. I felt a lot of that really negative about How had I led or enabled an environment in which we hadn’t addressed racial discrimination. You know, I set out 30 years ago. Everything I was trying to do was to try to make things fairer and better, and I been absolutely complicit, whether consciously or unconsciously, in making things worse and in being exclusionary. But the point is not my guilt or whatever the point is. So what do you do about that? Well, don’t just get out the way, because that’s an abrogation of responsibility. You try and fix it, but you do it in a way that enables that transfer of and equity so that you’re a better organization, better individual, subsequently, and so that’s how I think about it.
Jane Ide 14:27
Thank you. That’s, that’s, that’s a really honest, I think, response to the question, which I know is a challenging one for many of us as particularly as white leaders in the sector. So I really appreciate your thoughtfulness in that. And I think it perhaps kind of leads a little bit into the detail of of why we’re talking today around the fact you just joined the board of trustees at ACEVO as our chair. And I’m, I’m I risk, I risk sounding like I’m rerunning an interview, which I promise I’m definitely not, but, but I just wondered if we could just explore a little bit what you think, what brought you into thinking about applying for that role, and now that you are appointed in that role, what actually do you think your priorities are going to be?
Mark Norbury 15:10
I think ACEVO is a great organisation in its mission, remit, and the team we’ve got a crucial role inspiring and developing leaders in civil society. And I think leaders in civil society have a crucial role in making the UK the place it can be needs to be, and so forth. And I don’t just mean the UK, I mean us in a in an integrated world. And my whole career has been about purpose driven leadership, right? I mean, I really have that has been the major golden thread, and I hope I’ve learned quite a lot about that, but I also know I’ve got an awful lot to learn about that, and a kivos is an environment in which I can both contribute and gain a lot of that learning, but in doing so, hopefully support our mission to make civil society leadership the most impactful and most inclusive leadership it can be. We’re not yet doing that, and we know that. And there was that level of self awareness and accountability across board and team, which came really apparent through the recruitment process. And I think that combination of having really strong foundations, you know, a great reputation with government, with sector peers. I’ve been to ACEVO events. I’ve mentored ACEVO as a member, and I think what we understand at ACEVO is that there’s still sways of fantastic potential that we have to do even more. And I don’t do mean, do even more in lots of terms of lots of different activities all over the place. I mean, have even greater impact in in that much more of an equitable way. And you know, that was reinforced through our discussions, you know, the caliber of the team and the board. You know, I’ve never met so many impressive civil society leaders in a concentrated space, right? I mean, it’s fantastic in that sense, and we’ve got lots to do. That’s what excites me, yeah, and I talk to people who’ve been akivo members, who are akivo members, or might become akivo members, and there’s loads of different perspectives on what more we can be doing, or what differently we can be doing, what better we can be doing. And what I love is the organization is open to that and wants to take that on board in a thoughtful, strategic, focused way. So I think, yeah, I think there’s a massive opportunity, and if we fulfill, begin to more fully fulfill that potential is going to be transformative for the sector. So that’s what’s so exciting.
Jane Ide 18:10
It’s certainly exciting science from our side as well. I’m going, as you know, we’ve arrived at a point where we’re just developing our new strategy, and I think you’re absolutely right. All all of, all of that absolutely sits beneath it. But there’s something very specific, I suspect, about becoming the chair of akivo. There’s certainly something very, very specific about being the chief executive of Aki, though, which is the membership body for chief executives. And one of the things that we talk a lot about, and we hear a lot about from our members, is about the relationship between the chief exec and the chair, and how crucial it is to the success or otherwise of an organization, and the challenges that can sometimes arise. And given that you’ve got experience from both perspectives as a chief executive and as a chair, I’m interested to explore a little bit what you think are the biggest factors in making that relationship really thrive, and what your tips are for Chief execs in how to approach that relationship. And I should say, for the benefit of our listeners at home, yes, I will be taking notes, because I think this is a unique opportunity to find out what my new chair might be, might be thinking about.
Mark Norbury 19:21
I think that relationship is so pivotal that chair CEO relationship, and like any relationship, the best ones are founded on trust and mutual respect and a depth of trust and mutual respect that comes from really understanding one another, the motivations, interests, strengths, weaknesses, flaws, idiosyncrasies, the whole package, right? Those elements of trust building and relationship building can’t be shortcut. There is often an awful lot of pressure to shortcut them and to move to the transactional or to getting the job done, making the. Decision fixing the problem. And I know I am guilty as charged in terms of sometimes jumping to trying to kind of fix things and problem solve and whatever. And at the same time, I’m also really clear that fostering that understanding of one another, personally and professionally, is absolutely crucial, because what it does, it essentially means that when things are going well, you’re trying to learn from that and understand how you can do even better. And when things go wrong, you’re not judging, but you’re trying to also learn from that, and you also recognize the complexity that you know as a CEO, I’m running a team and an organization. As a chair, I’m also running a team and an organization, and if we don’t understand that about each other’s roles and responsibilities and motivations and a generosity in seeking to see the world through the other person’s perspective, and an empathy around that and what that means. So I know when we’re having a chat in a board meeting, and I look over and I see you, and I’ll see a smile or a squirm or something like that, and I and then I have, I think I have a sense about that. Why are they talking about this? I’ve already sorted this out. We’re all guns blazing. Come on, let, let’s go at it. And I’m like, Yeah, I get that. I feel that all the bloody time, right? I’m kind of like, yeah, come on. I’ve spent months and months doing this, you’ve been here. You read it for the evening before the meeting. And so I get that, and I also get that, that experience of being in it, spending that time focusing on the detail means that you’re finessing and making incremental adjustments, and you don’t always get the step back in the big picture. It’s also about holding each other to account. What I think is some of this, a lot of the language I hear about chairs and boards and as a CEO, sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable, because it’s as if all the accountability is with the board, and I just know, through every fiber of my being and every cell in my bloodstream that I have such a profound accountability for the day to day, success, mistakes, progress, whatever of unlimited that a group of wonderful, impressive, well meaning volunteers aren’t connected to that in the same way as I am, day in, day out, minute in, minute out, etc, etc, and at the same time, from a Legal, governance, etc perspective that check and balance and oversight is absolutely fundamental and and you have to hold both of those truths at the same time give them the space and respect they deserve. You know, I’ll be honest. When I first started sharing, was I a bit too hands on and stuck in the detail and kind of trying to be helpful, but probably being interfering. Yeah, I guess I would have been a bit tough. Fortunately, the chemistry and the rapport with my counterpart as the CEO or the director was sufficiently strong that they could push back, or I could, hopefully was thinking about and reflecting about things as I was going so I was self aware enough to say, sorry, that’s probably me over stepping just let me know. If I do it again, I’ll it’s my job to figure that, sort that out, not yours. But if you’re feeling it and I’m not seeing it, let me know. So it, but it’s a constant, dynamic evolution, and one of the fundamental things about our roles is we’re trying to make a difference. We know we screw up occasionally, and we know we’re trying to get better all the time. And there are moments of profound fulfillment and inspiration and all the rest of it. And there’s a lot of day to day, boom, boom, boom, just making it happen. Making it happen, making it happen. And one of the most powerful things that we have to offer, other than kind of kindness and understanding, is laughter. And I think so often we stop having fun. And I’m not saying the whole purpose of the relationship or all around it’s not about having fun, but if you don’t, if you’re not human and have a laugh with each other, gently nudge in a kind of jokey way when things can be a bit awkward, I find that very helpful. And. And where I’ve had a tricky time with a chair in the past making it a joke to kind of break through so that we can actually be a bit more honest about what’s going on has has been helpful to me. Now that may be just my incompetence to be able to directly communicate. Oh, this isn’t working, but it also puts people at ease, and it just makes things a bit easier. So kindness, humor, being relaxed, non judgmental, having built that trust and chemistry feel really good. And I, you know, you, through the recruitment process, did something I which I really valued, and made all the difference. So you said, Look, I don’t know you. We’ve never met before. Let’s go out and spend time together, have lunch stood and we did that. And after that, I knew you felt a lot more comfortable. You said, I feel a lot more comfortable, and I also felt a lot more comfortable, and that’s vital. And so I really valued that and respected that, and thought great, this is going to work.
Jane Ide 26:10
Yeah, I think everything you said there is going to resonate so much with our members and people listening to this. And I think I’ve worked with six chairs in seven years, which is quite a lot, and there’s a whole mostly prior to coming to ACEVO, so I fully applaud that. And I think your point about building, investing the time in building those relationships is so crucial and so critical. But also, I think the point you were making towards the end there about about having fun, and it’s a core behavior that we espouse at akivo. We take our work very seriously, very seriously, but we don’t take ourselves seriously and and I think knowing that actually you can break down those barriers. Is, is, is also incredibly important. So I hope, I hope our listeners can hear that I was actually smiling and chuckling to myself in some of what you said there. Because I think, I think, I think it is hugely important. So looking forward to how we, how we get to develop that together. And I think the other thing is, I guess, is one of the things that we’re very clear about at ACEVO, is that we try and share our learning, and as you and I learn to navigate this new relationship, sharing that as we are doing today, I think it’s going to be part of, part of what I hope we will do for the benefit of our our members as well. But just to go back a little bit, I mean, you’ve talked a few times about the recruitment process that we’ve been through, and it was a very, very thorough process, I’m sure from both sides. Certainly was from our side, and I suspect it probably felt like it for you as a candidate as well. But going right back to the beginning of this year, beginning of 2024 when we when we started that process, not having any clue at all who we would end up meeting through that process. One of the things I was very aware of, and that the board made clear, I think, in the recruitment pack, was that our incoming Chair could, in terms of terms of office, could well be the one that leads ACEVO into the next decade and be still in post in 2030 so that actually doesn’t feel that far away now in many ways. But you know, we are looking ahead. So what do you think are the the real challenges our members are going to be facing in that time? And how would you like to see us go about supporting them.
Mark Norbury 28:42
I can’t remember the time where where the challenges have felt so great in terms of society, environment, politics, economics, and I don’t think we’ve made the progress we wanted to or needed to on climate change, on health and wealth inequality, on racial or disability justice, I think all of those are headed in the wrong direction, and what we’re seeing is unlimited. What I know a whole bunch of a given members are going to be experiencing is huge increases in demand for charitable support and services, particularly at a time when public services are really struggling. And I, you know, I think that’s going to mean that we’ll get we’re going to need to focus more on prevention, early mention, more important intervention. More importantly, it’s also going to mean we’re really going to be up against it, and the value we have to show with every kind of how we spend, and pound we spend, etc, is going to feel more acute. And for people who really care about what they do, that is a heavy load. And so I think resilience has become already a really major issue. It’s going to become more acute for the sector, for each organization, and for our teams and for us as individual leaders. And so I think it’s critical that we figure out coping strategies before we need them, sort of preventative strategies, as much as coping strategies. And that that is true for our organization around income diversification and cost consciousness and reserves policies and flexibility and adaptability and all of that as it is personally with taking breaks diet exercise, but also collectively, about how we show up for each other, how we spend time together, how we connect and collaborate. And so I think akivo is fundamental to that, the kind of solidarity and support people feel in the membership in the community, how they come together at events, how they come together online. I’m really looking forward to ACEVOFest in March, I think. But I think it’s the action learning sets. I think it’s the mentoring relationships, and of course, it’s the support the CEO in crisis, support we offer all of these things, foster resilience, build solidarity, help with that. The challenges and they’re going to become more acute, so we’ve got to keep on going with those and continually improve them, as we always do. I think a fundamental issue is that is it is the lack of equity, kind of the inequality is getting worse, and I think that’s going to affect the whole sector more and more, or it certainly should. And we need to have, I think, less judgment and less defensiveness and be more open. Have the courage to be open and accountable, to admit we’ve not made the progress we need to that we still have significant white male privilege and bias throughout the sector, and to move beyond talking about it into words an accent, and I know I’m talking about it so but to action and change, I mean, and so one of the things that I did take away from the rather depressing US election was that we’ve got to be thoughtful about the language of identity and the risk that it it’s it can slip into kind of not being easy to understand and a bit arcane and technical and dogmatic, and that we need To strive even harder to be equitable and inclusive and with language that really works for everyone in terms of fairness, compassion, kindness, but we need to ally that with being that much more robust in calling ourselves and each other out where we see exclusion. And I think what we’re trying to do with our focus on leadership and civil society leaders, I think a fundamental piece of what is so powerful and distinctive about civil society leadership at its best is the kind of progress you can get from lived experience from and the shift you can make from tackling structural and systemic barriers so that you don’t just accept things as you are, that you’re actually seeking to genuinely challenge things and the status quo, because that’s how You make social change, and you’re doing that with a lens kind of fairness and of empathy, but it’s a really robust fairness and empathy. And, you know, I think that’s distinctive in civil society leadership, and I think it’s what we need as a country, and I think we have to be incredibly proud of that, but we have to really understand it and get behind it. And I think you know, the work that akivo is doing with the home truths project, and where we take that, how we apply that insight and understanding to ourselves, and how we work on that with our membership and across every domain of our influence, how we think about what is the right, supportive, constructive challenge we can offer, and the accountability we have in doing that. I think another big issue is AI, obviously, in technology and what that can do. I think we’re seeing that it’s much more than a productivity question. Any technology can be used for good or ill. I think we have an awful lot to learn, and we need to start learning. And I think we’re being a bit slow because we’re a bit worried. Already when I’m sure we don’t I don’t know what it is. I I’m hardly using it. I’m using it a bit here and there, but, you know, I actually only gonna get a level of understanding if I really embrace, not in in a kind of a thinking it’s perfect, but embrace in terms of seeking to understand and seeking to improve. What we’re seeing in with the changes in politics and economics and the challenges we face is that climate change is really slipping up down the agenda, whether it’s cop or net zero being downplayed and so forth. Even, you know, as a Kibo, we see that our climate change events, which are fantastic in terms of content, speakers and they, they, they’re attracting relatively less interest, right? And so the answer to that is not, oh, our members aren’t interested, so we, we shouldn’t do them. I think the answer has to be, climate change is urgent and it’s real, and we need to challenge ourselves and our membership about what more can we be doing, and how can we do that in a way that works for you, given we recognize the financial challenges, political challenges that you face as a member. Yeah, our new strategy, which you team the board had got pretty much set by the time I arrived. And so I’m I’ve read it, and I’m like, this is fantastic. This is exactly where we need to be. We need to be providing the programs and the pathways around leadership, not management development, not being a great profession, or whatever we need to be about generous servant leadership with lived experience at its heart. And there is a lot for us to do to build up our understanding, to do that in collaboration with our members, with partners. But I think if we can begin to deliver in that space, those programs, those pathways, support services, I think it will be phenomenal for the power and impact and equity of civil society.
Jane Ide 37:19
Thanks, Mark, that’s that’s really encouraging. I think you’re right. There are so many huge challenges, but there’s also some massive opportunities for us as a sector to really drive forward. And I think, I think we’re all hoping that that we can do that together, and ACEVO will absolutely play its role in making that happen, and we’re coming towards the end of our time for this. So I’m going to ask you one last question, which is one we we generally ask all our guests on the podcast, because I think it’s so important that as leaders we we hold this for ourselves and for those that we lead. What gives you hope for you personally and for our sector?
Mark Norbury 38:02
I feel incredibly lucky in what I do with unlimited day to day. In terms of the social entrepreneurs we work with, the team I work with, and the communities that our social entrepreneurs serve, all of them give me hope. One of the most fantastic things about civil society leaders is they take what life throws at them and they turn it into human gold. They’re social alchemists, and that human capacity for resilience, courage, creativity, generosity, making change happen, that’s what gives me hope. It doesn’t mean we’re not flawed. You know, the cracks are what lets the light in. And I feel that really strongly, that day in, day out, we challenge ourselves to make more of a difference, to hold the tensions, the pain, the anxiety, the uncertainty that we ourselves feel, that our teams feel, that the communities we’re working with feel, and we’re all doing it all the time, and we’re all doing it because we know we can fashion it into a bit more fairness, a bit more compassion, a bit more progress, A bit more learning, a bit more understanding, so that’s what fuels my ambition for civil society leadership, and it’s not like a perfectionism or optimization thing. You know, we make mistakes and we but it’s a it’s the seeking to learn and to engage and understand that is the power and and this seeking to change, the belief that change can happen through our collaborative endeavor, and that, you know, you don’t sit back. It’s practical hope and. And that’s the best definition of optimism and and I think it’s the best thing about being a leader in civil society. It’s an amazing privilege to be in the business of both experiencing but also generating and nurturing and amplifying hope. You know, what more could you want?
Jane Ide 40:18
I love that phrase of practical hope. I’m going to hold on to that one and use that, I think, going forward. Thank you, Mark. It’s been brilliant to have this opportunity to talk with you. I know everything that you’ve talked about will have given real food for thought and inspiration to those listening to us. I’m going to finish with a little tip for anybody listening to this, who, as a chief executive, is just about to start navigating a new relationship with a chair. First of all, two tips, actually, first of all, as Mark referenced earlier, go out for lunch, go and have a coffee, spend some time together. Make sure you do that early, because it’s well worth day. My second tip is interview them for a podcast, because even if the podcast never gets broadcast. This has been a real privilege for me to have this time with you and to have such a great insight into into what makes you tick, what what you’re thinking about, the way you’re approaching things. And I, I very much hope, and I strongly believe that will be a great platform for us to build our working relationship going forward for the benefit of akivo and for all the people that we are here to serve and the causes that they serve. So thank you again. Really appreciate you giving us the time for that today, and I will talk to you again very soon.
Mark Norbury 41:36 Thank you so much, Jane, it’s a it’s a real joy working with you.