Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Jane Ide chats with civil society leaders about their professional experiences, challenges, wellbeing, and their journeys in the sector.
As ACEVO’s chair of the board Rosie Ferguson steps down after a six-year term, she joins Jane Ide for this special episode of our podcast. They talk about Rosie’s governance journey of being a chair before becoming a CEO of a charity, her thoughts on charity governance, and what’s next in her professional path.
Transcript
Jane Ide 00:00
So today’s podcast is a particularly special one. I enjoy every podcast we host, and all the conversations I get to have with some great leaders from our sector. But today is a special one and a rather poignant one, because today I’m talking to our outgoing chair, Rosie Ferguson, who is leaving us and stepping down at the end of her term, after six years of serving ACEVO and serving ACEVO incredibly well, I have to say. And we wanted to take the moment to have a chance to have a conversation with Rosie, who’s a hugely experienced leader in our sector in all sorts of different ways. And we’ll talk about that in a moment, and just ask for Rosie’s reflections and thoughts as she steps on into what I’m sure will be another great chapter in her, in her career, but as she leaves us behind, so to speak, so Rosie, delighted to have you with us. Welcome.
Rosie 00:52
Thank you. It’s nice to be here. I feel a bit emotional hearing you say that at the beginning.
Jane Ide 00:58
I’ll try not to let it get too emotional before. But yeah, I know, I know exactly what you mean, and I think, I think one of the things I’m sure will come through in this conversation is that we talk at ACEVO an awful lot about when things go wrong in the relationship with chairs, because we know how, how devastating that can be for our members and for the organizations they serve. But I think it is hugely worth celebrating a great relationship with the chair. And I have to say, before we even start, I’m going to say that I think we’ve had a fantastic opportunity to work together. In the two and a half years I’ve been with akibo, and thank you so much for everything that you’ve done. But before we get into too much of a sort of emotional state, shall we say, I’d like to sort of start obviously, many of our members won’t know you. Many of our listeners won’t necessarily know you, but you have a huge amount of experience in the sector. And I think very unusually, if not almost uniquely, in my experience, you were a charity chair before you became a chief executive, and you were really quite young at the time. So can you tell us a bit about how that came about and and what drew you into charity governance in the first place?
Rosie 02:11
So this probably sounds a bit annoying, but I think taking responsibility for things and running meetings always came quite instinctively for me, I think, um, I’ve been volunteering for things and putting my hand up since I was a young child in class. Had done quite a lot of kind of youth action, Youth Leadership stuff. At 16, I was chair of my student council. I was chair of my youth theater committee, basically any meeting I could get my hands on and run it. I would do that from from quite a young age. I’ve always found kind of leading a lot easier than not leading, in some ways, in terms of I’m not very good at seeing on my hands and outside of the work, I’m the I’m the friend who books the holidays and brings the structured fun and that kind of instinctive it’s not just about being in charge, but it’s about kind of facilitating things to kind of to bring the bring a group of people together and support people to kind of make decisions and have fun and move forwards. Is very much a natural part of my personality. So becoming Chair of, I became chair of una exchange for first charity at 25 and it did feel quite normal to me. The challenge was, I think that actually having that instinct to take responsibility and step up and put yourself forward doesn’t always correlate with having the skills and knowledge to do it. So I think kind of, as ever, like they say, showing up is quite a lot of the of the of the battle, particularly in the voluntary sector, where we’re so reliant on volunteering. Reliant on volunteering. But of course, skills and experiences are also critical. So I was not necessarily the most skill chair to bring with to begin with. I definitely bought kind of passion and commitment and that willingness to take responsibility. There was quite an experienced director in place, as it was called director was essentially the chief exec role who I was line managing, and she obviously had to put her trust and confidence in me as chair. There are times now in hindsight when I know that I could and should have done better for her, but she kind of created the space for me to learn and grow. I think one of my first meetings of chair, I suggested creating about eight new working groups, which is obviously like classic bad governance I look back on and cringe, but actually, she tactfully managed that. And I think we, she kind of didn’t shoot me down in the meeting, but we, we phased them out over time. So I certainly took responsibility young. But also, you know, had a fast learning curve, and really appreciate the trust and encouragement of people who encourage gave me the platform to make those mistakes in the early years of my governance journey.
Jane Ide 04:53
So I think that’s a very Rosie, very honest reflection as well, that the recognition that you were learning at that point, and I. I’m really curious, and I’ve never thought to moss you about this before. Two things I suppose, come to mind. What was that board like? Was it, was it? Was it mostly trustees that were older than you, and how did that affect…
Rosie 05:13
So it was a youth volunteeringcharity, predominantly. So, and this is in the era of kind of the Russell commission and youth volunteering and youth leadership. So it was actually previous to me going becoming chair, it had been quite a traditional board of your traditional middle to later age professional volunteers and me standing as chair kind of marked a shift in that dynamic. So the board then became, at that point, the board became kind of 50% people under 25 who were who were kind of young leaders in the organization, and 50% those, those the previous volunteers with the experience and skills stayed on. So yeah, I also had my first experience in that job of a trustee, applying, actually, the only experience I’ve ever had of this a trustee who applying to be a trustee. We were looking for more professional skills at this point, and somebody who’d actually been struck off and had it was in the news and but that first lesson of like Google, somebody before you appoint them, which we’ve also learned subsequently, and many, sure, many people have just to find out there was a lot of interesting learning in that role, and rapid learning. But I think for me, that that need to have a balance of, you know, yes, bring the energy and the freshness, but also recognize the scope, the gaps in your skills and who you need to get around you.
Jane Ide 06:36
How much do you think that experience and you were talking then again, and I think many of us will recognize that sense of the executive director having to, I won’t say, manage their chair, but kind of support them into perhaps the more fruitful way of doing things, perhaps would be the way of putting it. So how do you think your experience of chairing that board then informed the way you took on your first leadership role as a paid chief executive. And how long afterwards was it that…
Rosie 07:07
I think it was about five years later. I was 30 when I became chief executive London Youth. And although there was lots of things about the role that was daunting, I think that sense of taking responsibility was not something that I ever the idea of being the Accountable person was not something that I really shied away from. It was interesting there, because London Youth I started there as youth volunteer training officer, and worked my way up through a number of roles. And for the three years before being chief exec, I’d been Operations Director, so I knew that I’d kind of built the organization from the bottom up in terms of the programs and the services that we were delivering at that time. So I really knew the context kind of inside out. But actually the experience, I think, of the trustee, gave me that opportunity to kind of step back and look at the bigger picture as well and think about actually, what do the trustees need? How do you feel comfortable to make decisions without all of the detail? How do you recognize your knowledge gaps and fill those? I think some of those governance skills kind of complimented my, you know, actually, a little bit. So I was kind of half Operations Director, half chair in terms of my experience, and was able to bring both of those things to the role of chief exec, which I think, which I hope, stopped me being that classic too much on the detail internal appointment kind of, I don’t know if that is classic, I say classic, but I can imagine there could have been a risk that I could have been that. But I think having that experience of chair gave me the bigger picture and that that kind of external perspective as well. So I’ve been charity of trustee of various other charities as well, and especially when you’ve been in an organization for a long time, that importance of getting perspective of how other organizations do things and how other conversations happen is really important.
Jane Ide 08:51
It’s something we talk a lot about with ACEVO, and I know from my own experiences that having done it in the more sort of traditional the other way, being a chief exec first and then becoming a trustee and also becoming a chair. I found it quite transformational to step onto a trustee board in terms of my understanding of what my role was and could be as the chief exec with the board. And what that dynamic, like said is that something that you you kind of absorbed as well along the way.
Rosie 09:19
Yeah I think so, yeah. I mean, I think the dynamic is slightly different, depending on the people you’ve got in chair and Chief Executive as excellent a question of balance. You know, actually finding different characters will find different ways. But yeah, that that for me, certainly, as both a chief exec and a chair, I think the Chief Exec is really leading in the sense of the day to day, and the chair is there to kind of steward and chair and facilitate and create the space and the boundaries of other chief exec and their team to to deliver and. And yeah, I think I feel like that. I was just thinking, do I change what I think the role is depending on what side of it I’m on? But actually, no, I don’t. I hope that that kind of resonates on both sides.
Jane Ide 10:09
That’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because yes, yes, I see what you mean. It’s, it’s, if you’ve got a clear sense of what the chair role is, whether you’re in that chair role or whether you’re responding to it and acting with it, then that should be very consistent, shouldn’t it? So no, I appreciate that. But and talking about chief exec roles, you’ve done three very different chief exec roles to date, and I definitely say to date in your career, what do you think is the most useful learning that you could pass on to, particularly those who are new in their chief exec role. And many of our members joined us, obviously quite early on in their chief exec career.
Rosie 10:47
I think there’s obviously a huge amount. And if you’d asked me this question a year ago, I probably would have given you a different answer, but I think at the moment, I think the sense that context is everything, really and that just to explain that. So I was chief executive London Youth at 30, and it was a time when it really felt like everything we touched turned successful. Yes, there were challenges out there, but there was also a lot of money out there. It felt like the world was on our side while we were kind of, of course, talking about child poverty and the need for opportunities for young people. There was so much more out there, and the situation was so much less bleak, and it was easier to make a difference, and the leadership and financial context was so much easier. So while, of course, there was an element of skill and hard work involved, we were swimming with the tide, and I think at the time, it was very easy to congratulate myself on how fabulously I was doing, but actually in hindsight, you know, 10 years later, I was chief executive house of St Barnabas with so much more skill, knowledge and expertise, with a much stronger share, a much stronger Trustee Board, and yet the context we were operating in was just impossible for the model we were trying to work. And eventually that led us to entering voluntary liquidation. So it was like for years, it just felt like, however hard we tried, we couldn’t cut a break. And so it’s quite interesting thinking about, of course, at London Youth, I should have congratulated myself we did well. And it’s not that, it’s not that when things are going well, you should not take any credit for it, but I think I know that my leadership at house in Barnabas was so much more informed and evolved, and we were facing really challenging circumstances, which we navigated for quite a long time and then could not navigate any longer. So I think actually recognizing when things are hard, how much comes down to luck and context, and, of course, celebrating successes, but trying not to beat yourself up too much about your failures when, particularly at the moment, so many leaders are leading in such a challenging context, whether that’s the kind of financial context, the depth of need that they’re experiencing the demands of their team and like, actually, it’s really hard, and sometimes you might only Take one step forward in a week and or one step forward two steps back, but that’s still, you know, one step forward against the tide is much easier than a whole 100 meters with the tide. And so I think actually, that sense of just recognizing context, I had some coaching to help me kind of work through what happened at the house, and really tried to turn that kind of sadness into learning as much as possible, but definitely recognizing that actually, as with every as with life, as well as with work, like luck and context, play so much more of a role than we sometimes acknowledge. And I think it’s really helpful just to almost take that pressure off ourselves by recognizing that.
Jane Ide 13:39
Again I think that’s that’s very you, and one of the things I very quickly came to recognizing you when we started working together, is that you have this, this really deep passion for learning and for developing and for developing an understanding. And I see you doing that. You were very open, and you’re very honest as you went through that process at the houses at Barnabas, and you spoke about it at our conference in March this year. You mentioned that you had a very strong chair and a very strong board at Moss as well. And in the context of this conversation, and particularly because I know many of the people listening to this, or at least some of the people listening to this, will be going through something very similar, or be very close to it. And I was just curious, if you’re able to what was it that you look for from your chair and your board in that because I was very conscious at the time that, as is so often the case, you as the chief executive with a visible face, what was happening. You were the one that was having to deliver the messages and be in in the public space, so to speak around it, but behind every chief executive is a chair and a board. So what, what was it you were looking for from from them?
Rosie 14:49
Probably one of the main things was kind of this, maybe sounds like a poncy way of saying it, but kind of carrying the intellectual complexity with somebody. And of course, I could do that with my senior team, but I think my chair really was the other person who had the whole picture of that and it, and it was complex, you know, we were trying to do something which was about a, you know, a private members club subsidizing a homelessness charity. When you get to the point where a homeless charity is starting to subsidize a private members club that is not social mobility or anything to do with what we were trying to do, but at the same time, you’ve got a private members club that so many people are invested in and so many dynamics, and at that point, so much investment and love in the in the model, that it’s really hard to kind of have some of that intellectual truth around when does this become? When does this stop being a progressive model and start being something that just just isn’t viable anymore, and I think actually really having because, of course, there’s the kind of there was the financial arguments, which were very stark and obviously, but there was also the the intellectual complexity around the mission and around what is, you know, is employing people of value in its you know, like, what is impact in that context? And as you things start to get more complicated, how do you really start to justify what is the right decision in those in that context, and what compromises do you make? You know, for us, for example, the majority of the hospitality sector doesn’t pay under living wage. One of the reasons, one of the reasons our model was particularly challenging, was because we decided not to compromise on that. And there were several points at which our viability was was challenging, that that conversation came around. And I think really holding is one thing, to hold something, hold the line in a board meeting or in a with your team and say, This is our, this is our, this is our position. And of course, we don’t veer from it, but actually being able to have those honest conversations with a chair where it’s like, do we want to really test these assumptions? Like, you know, I think it was that, I think, given the complexity of what we were doing, that really sharing that intellectual rigor was was the best thing, as well as she’s just a brilliant chair. So actually, you know, the support and the she really managed the board in a way that men, which kind of took something off my plate. And she was very, yeah, she was great. But I think it was that it was really carrying the, the moral compass that I really valued sharing with somebody.
Jane Ide 17:23
I think that that’s a really, a really clear summary, isn’t it, of what can be the best relationship between a chair and a chief executive, where you can have that open that you have to be able to have those open conversations, because otherwise somebody’s in the dark, and that’s not not healthy, but that shared set of values, that shared understanding, and that comes, I think, doesn’t it from, from an investment in those relationships as well, which, in a way, kind of brings me onto my next question, which brings us back into your role with us at akivo. So you became our chair in 2018 which feels like a lifetime ago. It’s pre pandemic. That’s, a whole other world. There’s something particularly specific I think about. As for me, being the chief executive of the membership body for Chief Executives is a unique role to be in. For you, as the chair of that membership body for our sectors leaders, what do you think has changed in your understanding of leadership and governance through taking on that role and everything you’ve done with us in that time.
Rosie 18:25
I think one thing that’s really valuable about being involved in ACEVO is really seeing the patterns. Because sometimes you can feel like what you’re going through, or what the organizations you know are going through, but actually seeing those on a macro scale, with what all of the chief executive, Nikitas network are facing is really both helpful in terms of being part of something much bigger, but also sometimes quite depressing in terms of the extent of the demands on our CEO in crisis service over the last few years and how they’ve they’ve really grown. I mean, as you just touched on the context in that time, you know, we’ve had COVID the move to working from home. Workforce expectations have changed rapidly. The expectations on Chief execs, kind of literacy and diversity and inclusion, and the criticism from both sides that comes around that I think we always thought that being a child chief exec was a was a tough job, but now employers ni being the latest kind of new challenge to drop, it does feel quite relentless. And I think the although I always knew that that chair relationship mattered, we see that what, what comes back from akibo members is that actually that is the biggest barrier, really, to Chief execs being able to thrive in their roles. So I think not meaning to give away too many secrets, but we are making kind of higher quality governance a higher priority in a Kegels new strategy, which we’ve been working on together. Jane, you know, I’ve experienced the best and the not so best at all of charity chairs and. And, you know, really know that that is the difference between sanity and burnout. And, you know, I think for akivo, getting that right has to be a real priority, and will be going forwards. I think the other thing is the, you know, Akiba has really given me insight into the breadth and diversity of charity CEOs up and down the country, across England and Wales, such a range of causes, and, you know, small, much smaller organizations, larger organizations, and that, you know, coming on and and just seeing, yes, there’s commonalities, but there’s also so much richness in terms of what organizations are doing. And really, yeah, our sector is amazing, and it’s, it’s a privilege working with the kivo to really see outside of the kind of bubble or sub sector that you, that you exist in yourself. I think the pandemic really gave the Kiva the opportunity to we, you know, we’d been criticized for being a London centric organization. Of course, we did events around the country, but I think, honestly, we, our center was London, and I think what the pandemic did was really enabled us to move online provide genuinely equitable experiences to our members all across England and Wales. And now, as that has evolved, the staff team are now dispersed nationally. So I feel like we’ve genuinely moved from being a what was a London centric organization by definition, into something that genuinely has national reach and relevance. And I think that’s really exciting, and I think the pandemic was a positive catalyst for that.
Jane Ide 21:32
Yes, I often say, we’re not a London based organization, we’re a national organization with a London base. And I think it’s, it’s a very different, different feel, isn’t it? And you’re right, and so much has changed in the way the sector works. As you say, You’ve touched on it all. The workforce changes the different expectations of leaders. As leaders, you are permanently under scrutiny. You always have been. You know, there’s always been the way, but in a way now that is so much more visible and so much more challenging, I think, than used to be and and I guess that’s where, again, I would say, the support of a of a good chair of a good board behind you, giving you the advice and the guidance that you need, and giving the challenge that you need as well sometimes is so important. But what do you think looking ahead? What do you think are the biggest challenges, challenges in governance that are sort of coming down the tracks at us. Is it more of the same? Or do you think there is is change ahead and and what do you think our role as you hand on the button to mark as Mark Norbury? What do you think a key verse role might be or should be? What do you hope to see us doing over the next few years?
Rosie 22:42
I wish I had a really wise vision for the future of charity governance. I think many of us are in a situation where we kind of know that the current model of volunteer trustee boards isn’t really fit for purpose, with the complexity and scale of the sector it is today, and the skills and time that are required to be a good chair, balancing that with the need for, you know, diversity and inclusion at board level and a kind of different kind of leadership. However, nobody has really yet, as I can see, come up with a better proposal. I don’t think just paying trustees is the answer, nor is it affordable for the majority of charities. So I feel like we are in a bit of a we know that, you know, what we’ve got at the moment is the best idea we have currently. I really hope that, yes, this is it. I’m going to walk into the sunset, but I’d love to be involved in these conversations that you know yourself. And mark as the new chair, you know, we have put in a Kiva is new strategy, the opportunity to kind of collaborate with association of chairs and others, to really think about what, what could shift to make to improve governance for the future. You know, we’ve been operating the same model for a long time, and albeit, yes, it’s tweaked and improved. And maybe it is about more tweaks and improvement. Maybe it isn’t a completely new throw the baby out of the bath water? I genuinely don’t know, but I’m excited that hopefully Akiva will have some space in the new strategy to do some thinking about that in partnership with some other great minds, yeah, and also the the focus on both chairs and CEOs and how we equip them for the future, I think that, you know, yes, CEO skills and leadership are really important, but alongside them, need to be skilled and experienced. Well, not necessarily experienced as chairs, chairs, but bringing relevant experience and life experience to chairing alongside and giving people the opportunity to to really, yeah, support their organizations to flourish or not as the case, you know, as is, as is required.
Jane Ide 24:47
Yes. And, and your point about governance model, I think, is very and will resonate with an awful lot of our listeners. It’s, you’re right, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely emerging as we develop our strategy, which will be a. Be sharing with members and stakeholders very soon for discussion. But I think the reason it’s been so much part of our thinking around the strategies, it has absolutely come from our members. They have been saying for a long time, something’s not working. Something has to change. And you’re right. Nobody has nobody has, nobody has a brilliant idea of what the alternative might be. And I think we always have to be a bit careful what we wish for and but it is. It’s so important to the ability of our sectors organizations to thrive that it has a healthy, meaningful governance model at the heart of it. So I think those are definitely going to be some conversations. We’re going to be very keen to be having a voice in and, to some degree, driving. And I’m sure you will be part of those conversations as well, because you’re not dropping off the face of the planet, I’m glad to say, but you are stepping down after giving us six years of your time and your energy and your commitment and your passion. What next? What’s, what’s, what’s in the future? For you, do you know?
Rosie 26:04
At the moment, I’m doing an interim role at charity called into university, which is really interesting. Organization grew from a kind of very small local charity to having 44 centers around the country. So I’ve gone in as chief program officer, working for the founder chief executive. And it’s, it’s really interesting, after kind of 10 years of chief exec roles, 10 years or more, 12 years actually, to be in that not being a chief exec and just observing a little bit how that dynamic works. And of course, as chief execs, I think we all heard all of those cliches about always remembering that you have a loudspeaker stuck into your mouth and that every move you make contributes to organizational culture and expectations. But I think when you’re in chief exec roles for a long time, it’s really easy to underestimate that, especially if you’re somebody who thinks of themselves as reasonably kind of low ego, and you’re kind of building trusted and grounded relationships with your teams. And everybody knows me and I’m just rosy, and they get me. You know, it’s very easy to kind of get into that mindset, but I think just being in a non chief exec role and seeing afresh the power and responsibility that comes with that job title is, I think, a really helpful a really helpful reminder just being able to, yeah, to just kind of sit back as an interim and not be the chief executive and observe some of those organizational dynamics. But I’m loving being here, and it’s a great it’s a great organization. I think in 2025 I am any headhunters listening, I am open to a permanent chief executive role and also hopefully to a chair role. I hope within a kind of a year or so, I Yeah, will find the right thing. I’m not in a rush. I’m really enjoying the interim. Opportunity is really interesting in terms of just seeing different organizations and also not carrying quite the level of responsibility, and although I said I’m very up for responsibility, sometimes nice to have a little bit of a break from being that accountable person. So yeah, I’m enjoying where I am at the moment, but excited about what opportunities might come in the future.
Jane Ide 28:19
I think that’s a brilliant response, Rosie, and I love what you’re saying about having that opportunity. And again, very Rosie, that you take that opportunity to step outside of the chief exec role and observe what it’s teaching you and what you’re learning, which I know you will take into your into your next step. And I was also thinking as you were talking, I was thinking back to the beginning of this conversation, and what you were saying. What you were saying about even as a child, I had this picture in my head then of young Rosie at school, first hand up to be the milk monitor for the day, or, you know, whatever. And I’m certain that you will, you will have at least, probably at least another couple of chair roles ahead of you, if not more. I if you ever need a reference for the executive that you’re going to be working with, contact me. I will be more than happy to tell them that you have been, for me, you have been such a brilliant chair to work with. I’ve worked with I think, I think it’s five chairs in my time as a chief executive, which, given that this is only my third chief exec role, probably tells you something about some of the chairs I’ve worked with, and I have learned so much from working with you, genuinely. It’s really helped me in my leadership. And this is a I said earlier, this is a unique role, leading a kivo. It’s not like any other chief exec job, I don’t think because of the context of it, and you’ve been a huge support to me. I know I speak for my predecessor, Vicky Browning as well, who told me when she was doing the handover. I’m sure she won’t mind me quoting she did the handover. To me, she said, Rosie is the best chair I’ve ever worked with. And I know why she said that. I completely get that and you have been a brilliant help to both of us. Individual. Actually, and to the organization, and ultimately, of course, to our members, and that’s what this is all about. At the end of the day, like any other charity or civil society organization, we are only here for the work that we’re here to do, and I think for all of our members, 1000s of people, that have been supported by akivo in that past six years, on behalf of all of them, on behalf of all of our team. And I’m going to try not to get emotional, but feel a bit emotional, I just want to say thank you, and we wish you the very, very, very best into your next steps, and we are going to miss you, but I’m trusting that you are going to stay part of the akivo network and part of the akivo family, and when you do step into your next chief executive role, that the first thing you will be doing will be giving us your updated details as a member. And we’ve loved working with you. So thank you so much. Rosie.
Rosie 30:52
Thank you so much. It’s been, it has been a real privilege. And yeah, I’m sad to leave, but also I think there is a time to hand over to new ideas, and I’m really excited that mark and the rest of the trustees and you are going to take the new strategy in the future, and yes, I hope to be a beneficiary of it in a in a future role. So yeah, it’s been, it’s been a really great journey, and akivo is a much needed and and exciting organization to be part of. So thank you, Jane, for your leadership. And yeah, all the best. Good luck ACEVO! Go!
Jane Ide 31:31
Great place to stop. Thank you very much Rosie.
