Welcome to Leadership Worth Sharing, a podcast in which ACEVO chief executive Jane Ide chats with civil society leaders about their professional experiences, challenges, wellbeing, and their journeys in the sector.
This is a special episode of our podcast, hosted by Adeela Warley, CEO of CharityComms, the membership organisation for charity communicators. Adeela talks to Jenni Regan, CEO of IMIX, and James Harris, director of communications and campaigns at Rethink Mental Illness, about the importance of strategic communications. They also discuss the value of storytelling, the challenges of misinformation, and embedding the value of comms into organisations.
Transcript
Jane Ide 00:03
Hello. I’m Jane Ide, Chief Executive of ACEVO, and welcome to a very special episode of Leadership Worth Sharing, which this time we’re delivering in collaboration with our friends at CharityComms. Today, I’m handing over hosting duties to Adeela Warley, CharityComms’ Chief Executive. Adeela and our two special guests, who she will introduce shortly, will talk about leading the way in communications. Welcome Adeela and over to you.
Adeela Warley 00:34
Well, hello and welcome everybody to Leadership Worth Sharing. I’m taking over hosting duties from Jane for this very special episode, and I have the pleasure of being joined today by two leaders, Jenni Regan, CEO of IMIX, and James Harris, Director of Communications and Campaigns at Rethink Mental Illness. Thank you for being here, Jenny. I wondered if you could kick us off, just telling us, introducing yourself to the listeners and summarising the work of IMIX.
Jenni Regan 01:09
Sure! so I’ve been in the role at IMIX for around three years. And IMIX is a specialist communications charity working in the migration space. And we were actually set up quite, quite unusually by funders who could see there was a real gap in the market. There were lots of fantastic charities doing brilliant work, but they didn’t have the skills or the capacity to kind of communicate about that work. So, we were set up. It’s our sixth, sorry, fifth year as a charity but we’ve been set up for nearly 10 years. So, what we do is communications is basically the purpose of the charity. We’re quite unusual in that way. And we work with lots of grassroots organisations to mentor, to train, to really boost their confidence and boost their capacity to tell stories and to communicate their work. We have a lived experience network of around 150 people, all who have experience of migration, direct experience of migration, who will work with the media or work behind the scenes. And then we also do some work with the media, with journalists, such as social contact events, where people can meet with our storytellers. And also, if they are looking to do a really kind of an in-depth story, we’ll work with them to ensure that they’ve got the kind of the facts they need and that the people to tell the story. So, we kind of work in in three different ways, but our main focus is just to really ensure that the migration sector has has a really effective way of communicating, because it’s, it’s a hard space to be at the best of times.
Adeela Warley 02:49
It so so is and never more needed I’d say. Thank you so much, Jenni, it’s given us a great insight into IMIX and your work. And James, please, could you share a little bit about the work that you do at Rethink Mental Illness?
James Harris 03:05
Of course, yeah. So, I would say a key differential would be, I suppose I’m a smaller cog in a bigger wheel, if that makes sense at Rethink Mental Illness. So, Rethink Mental Illness was formed about 50 years ago as the national schizophrenia fellowship. It’s, it’s kind of evolved since then, and our remit extends to anyone who’s severely affected by mental illness. We do a lot. I kind of refer to us a bit like an iceberg. We’ve got, we’ve got services, we’ve got groups, we do a lot of policy work. We have an advice and information service. And the bit I’m involved in is the bit above the tip of the iceberg, where we’re kind of communicating what we’re doing and our impact to the wider world. And within that, I have a team of around about 20 professionals who work across various different communications channels, websites, social media, media, internal comms, etc.
Adeela Warley 04:00
Thank you so much. I love that image of you being on the top of the iceberg.
James Harris 04:05
Trying to be.
Adeela Warley 04:05
At CharityComms, we’re often advocating for the value of comms in charities as a strategic function. And a lot of the work that we do, from our events to reports, we explore examples of strategic communications, and through this, we learn the benefits and the impact of organisations that really put comms center stage in their organisations. So, I’m intrigued to hear from both of you today about why you feel it’s important that communications is valued in charities, and what this looks like in practice in your organisations? James, it would be great to hear and start with you as the comms leader on the panel today.
James Harris 04:57
Sure. So, I suppose a kind of reflection on this is that charities vary hugely in size and missions, so their comm needs are going to vary enormously. But I would, I would imagine that if you’re a charity that has a need in income generation, if you’re a charity that has a desire to bring about change, if you’re a charity that has to communicate with its beneficiaries, then communication is going to be vital to your work, and central to your work. And then within that, I’ve always felt there’s, there’s an element of our work that is kind of overlooked a little bit, which is the charitable purpose of comms in itself. So we, we we live in a world full of misinformation, with people, supposed experts all around us, and I suppose that in addition to those functions that we have as a team, supporting our colleagues around income generation, supporting our policy work, promoting the work of our services, storytelling, there is something about our ability through our communications channels, our website, our social media, to to be a trusted source of information, to help educate, to help inform, and I consider that to be a vital role. So, when I think about comms within the world of Rethink Mental Illness and Mental Health UK, we are both a service to the charity and to our colleagues, but we’re also, we’re proactive in our approach as well, trying to fulfill that role around resonating and informing our supporters.
Adeela Warley 06:30
That’s a really, that’s a really interesting way of looking at it, and I think, I think it will resonate for people, many communicators who have to perform that dual function in their organisation. Thank you, James. Jenni, I was so pleased that you said yes to being our guest today, coming from an organisation that advocates for the role of comms in delivering the impact that you need to make in the world and my team also tell me how much of a champion you were of your colleague who won our Rising Star Award recently in the inspiring communicator awards. I’d love to hear what the relationship is like with your comms team and how you see the value of comms
Jenni Regan 07:14
Brilliant, so we’re in a slightly different position from James and from most charities, in that we don’t really do our own comms. We are there very much to support other other charities and other organisations to communicate well. So, in that way, communications is embedded throughout the charity. Everybody has a comms role. So, we’re not, kind of traditionally in that kind of sense of having a media team or a comms team or a fundraising team. We’re very small, only nine of us at the moment, so we’re very multi-functional. But yes, we do kind of advocate very much for for, for charities, to be able to speak properly. We see it as, I think, lots of particularly small charities see it communications as a luxury. It’s not. It’s so important for strategy, and particularly in the migration space, and in the mental health space, because of, as James said, that the misinformation and the the toxic narrative around migration, particularly which you know, has has traditionally been around mental health too. So I have a lot to learn from my comms team. I don’t come from it. I like I’ve always kind of worked in in kind of comms and media. Previously to working in charities, I was a broadcast journalist and then worked at Mind, but I’ve never had a traditional comms role in that, my role has always been around kind of public engagement and changing narratives or attitudes. So I learn a lot from my team. We have a really good mixture of people who have have really kind of lots of experience and skills in communications and media. We have others who may have really important kind of knowledge of the sector or lived experience themselves, and we then will work on it with them to kind of really build the confidence and communications. And you mentioned my colleague, Eli, and she’s such a fantastic example of somebody who who came into IMIX around five years ago with no media experience at all, but just a really fantastic kind of knowledge of of the sector, having a network herself, and she’s now, she’s now kind of gaining coverage in national papers and magazines. She was at the House of Lords on Monday, and that has all been through kind of a really, I guess, very proactive team, but also a team where we all have kind of multi roles. And I think her winning that that award was the highlight of our year. Because actually, you know, you need to celebrate that kind of thing, it can be quite a miserable place to be in the migration space. You really need to celebrate the wins. So yeah, I have a lot to learn from my team, but also I hope that they are all able to really feel as though they’re kind of developing and growing in their job as well. And I think Eli is a really good example of that.
Adeela Warley 10:03
It’s so good to hear that she goes from strength to strength in her role. And I understand, you know what, IMIX as a team of communications specialists. The work that you do is very much about helping, empowering others to have their voice, and that is that’s that’s shared across the sector. Actually, there are quite a lot of charities who do that brilliant job. And I also know that you, you were one of the speakers that our stepping into leadership program, and that’s a program that really looks at how you can how comms professionals and senior leaders can step into director roles, step into those top jobs, so that there’s even more chance that a really good understanding of communication sits at the heart of their organisations. So big thank you for that as well. So James, does this mirror any of your experience? What’s the relationship between comms and the leadership in your charity?
James Harris 11:08
Well, I’m going to take a punt that they might be listening at some point. So with that in mind, I think I have to… but yeah, my truthful response would be, it’s, it’s, it’s very, very good. It’s been, it’s been good in all the organisations I’ve worked for previously as well. I mean comms. I mean in the fortunate position where, where comms, and the expertise of comms, and the hard work of the team, teams I’ve worked in has always been appreciated. I’ve kind of, I suppose, it was always absorbed. There’s a kind of blessing and a curse in comms, which is that we tend to sit somewhere close to the centre of the spiders web, if, if that’s what your organisation is. So there’s not a huge amount that doesn’t, in some way kind of come through us.
Adeela Warley 11:51
Yeah.
James Harris 11:52
And a consequence of that, a very happy consequence, I think, is that we tend to have very high visibility with senior leaders, certainly at Rethink Mental Illness and then, of course, by extension, across the charity, because a lot of activity will kind of come through us, through us as a team. Um one element of that, I suppose, in that relationship with with colleagues and senior leaders, is, and this is, I think I’m sure this isn’t the singular to comms, but it does feel particularly specific sometimes is that its one of those areas where everyone’s kind of got a view. Because we all, we all communicate, some, some very effectively, some, some not so. But all of us communicate, there’s probably isn’t anyone who doesn’t have some form of social media channel, whether that’s LinkedIn or elsewhere, we all consume the news. We all use websites. So people do it often. I think that’s probably one of the biggest challenges, I think for us, is the is in dealing with anyone within the organisation, and including a senior level, is people often come with a kind of pre-proposed idea of the output, and we’re always trying to drag people back to the outcome and the audience. So, by and by, I would say it’s very, very good. It comes with its challenges. We have to be pretty resilient to feedback. But yeah…
Adeela Warley 13:12
Yes, I think I mean that comes back to your your comment earlier about the dual function of being a service provider and being a strategic, proactive, strategic function for your organisation. And there’s always that tension between being seen as, oh, build this for us, create this for us, we need this tomorrow, and actually thinking about, well, why? Why would you, why would you want to do that in the first place? Asking those awkward questions which really drill down into what’s the outcome of what you’re looking for? And maybe the answer isn’t a leaflet. Maybe the answer isn’t a website portal. It’s something else so and that can be welcomed sometimes, and it can be… can be not so welcome other times.
James Harris 13:57
That was very cathartic. I had this very conversation, a bit earlier today, with some, some colleagues. I’m so old that it’s gone through phases, and I can remember back in the day it was, everything was a variation of a press release. And then for some, for some reason, there was a period where everything was a micro site. I don’t know why everything a micro site. And then more recently, we’ve gone through TikTok and Instagram. So yeah, I mean, I think the shop stewards of communications professionals would say we all battle some of the same challenges.
Adeela Warley 14:26
Yes indeed. So, these relationships that we forge with our colleagues are really form the foundations of how we approach issues and trends, and there’s an awful lot happening in the world right now, let alone in our sector, and much of which impacts on communicators, things like AI, social media ethics and changes to fundraising. So I’d love to get some insights on what key challenges your charity is working on, and any themes you are optimistic or worried about in your world of comms. And Jenni, would you like to kick us off?
Jenni Regan 15:07
Yeah, so it’s kind of our ongoing problem, but it is our main problem is, is the narrative around migration and that that is really why, you know, why we exist. Public Domain debate is often dominated by kind of misinformation and dehumanising language. And it’s not just around kind of headlines and media coverage and, and kind of public speakers. It’s around how that, the narratives then shape the policy, and shape, you know, laws and shape unsafe conditions. So we’re not just trying to change how people, you know, how people view, view migration, but we’re actually trying to realise systemic changes, to the system. So, plus side, we, everything we do is really trying to humanise, humanise the issue. Everything we do is around, is based on storytelling. So, you know, we’re not just, we’re not just kind of giving facts and figures. It’s all around, basically telling the stories of people who have this lived experience. And it’s really, really growing. The number of people who do want to speak out, who do want to speak to the media, who do want to create content for us, has increased greatly, which is a really, really positive thing for us. And I think the confidence of people speaking out is a really positive thing. One thing we also look at is, is something that not all charities understand, is that who you’re trying to talk to, and I think James kind of touched upon it then is as important as what you say. And that’s, again, an ongoing battle, is that people don’t understand. They can, they can’t just say nice things and push it out. There is, you know, there’s a lot of thought that should go into how its said, why its said, and, yeah, how, where it goes to, and who you’re trying to reach with that. So I’d say that’s a battle for us in terms of, I guess, the work we do in trying to ensure that the people are the most effective communicators they can be but yeah, I say that. You know, the divided communities, the polarization, the far-right riots last year had a massive impact on our… on our sector. We were able to offer quite a lot of crisis comms support in that in that time, which feels very reactive, but was needed at that time. But I guess it’s not going away, and the, the negative narratives feed into that kind of hate as well. So, so yeah, we’re trying to reclaim the narrative, and we’re trying to shift the, the debate, but it can feel all encompassing at some points, but we fight it with, with humanity and with, with, kind of human stories, which I think is the the only way.
Adeela Warley 17:48
I, I 100% agree with you about that, and I, I’m so aware how many, many charities are having to navigate very choppy waters and enter very divisive conversations. And understanding the tools that you can use to change the narrative and not by reinforcing the negative things, but actually drawing out the messages that you want to hit home, that you want to land well with people, is a constant challenge for many. James, where is your charity at where’s your focus at the moment, and how your team feeling right now about it?
James Harris 18:34
There’s quite a lot on our agenda. I would say, I think the, and I will, I will strive to name a positive or something I feel vaguely optimistic about. I mean, the key thing I think.. my, my team are ever, ever worried about, is busyness and, and there’s a busyness in what we do as an organisation, but I think there’s a busyness in just how complex the comms mix is and how volatile the comms mix is. There was, there was a time when the news, was the news, was the news. And now people are consuming their information and updates, much more in bubbles, much more on the channels that work for them. And those channels can be quite volatile. So, you know, we’re striving on a daily basis to connect with and resonate with people who are severely affected by mental illness, and the people that care for them, that the healthcare professionals and their loved ones, and there’s a myriad of ways that we now need to try and reach them – be it through website, traditional media, but also all the various different social media channels. And, and as we know, there’s such a variance in the social media channels in terms of the audiences they connect and speak with, so it just it creates a lot, and then then there’s that volatility around it. And as, as Jenny’s already flagged, a lot of community management that we need to do and investing in around protecting people and safeguarding in terms of the conversations that are going on around them. So that’s something that does give me anxiety about the resource required to be able to do that. And also, you know, what’s it going to look like in 18 months time, etc? You know, where is X? Where’s it going to end up? Will blue, will Bluesky or Threads takeover? Is, is… LinkedIn, the new Twitter? I mean, there is, there’s so much in in flux that that’s that’s a lot for us to work through. Striving to be positive about change. I would say that I am quite optimistic around AI, and that’s one area that I feel quite positive about. I do have regular conversations with my team members about the environmental impact of AI, but as a tool, I have to say, for comms professionals, I think it is, Well, I’m certainly think it’s fantastic. It’s made copywriting a lot easier, I have to say, and I think it’s about how we use these technologies. We use them responsibly, we use them, we think about them before we use them, that we have some kind of guidance around it. But for me, there is, so long as there’s a human in and a human out, I think it is, it is a potentially valuable tool for lots of communicators. So in essence, there’s lots I’m worried about in terms of volatility of technology, but there’s also, there’s some gleams of positivity.
Adeela Warley 21:31
Fantastic. Thank you. I think AI is an enormous one, and I agree with you when you say it’s about how we use them, the jobs that we use AI for, the honesty and transparency about what we’re doing and how we’re doing it, and I think also acknowledging that, you know, we’ve long known about digital exclusion and those people who don’t have access to the technology or have access to the training and skills, and so that that is very uppermost in my mind when I’m thinking about AI. I think all the issues that both that you both mentioned, Jenni and James, require or, or are easier to deal with if you have a senior leadership team, a director, a trustee who understands your reality, you know, understands the tools that you’re using, or enough about it to understand why you’re advising them to do, to approach the work in a certain way, and also just cognisant of just how many plates are being spun here. So I think you’ve painted a really vivid picture of your working your working lives. I’d, I’d love to ask both of you actually, how you approach telling the story of your impact. This is a real theme, isn’t it, and how you’re sharing, so Jenni, how are you sharing the impact that IMIX makes?
Jenni Regan 22:57
We are really bad at communicating about ourselves. We have been traditionally. And this is something that, that we took a really step back last year, which, you know, I think when you were mentioning about social media, James, we stopped our social media for a while. And I think that could be really scary for some people, but we were in that kind of mode of of just posting. We weren’t quite sure why we’re posting, we weren’t quite sure who we were posting to. We didn’t know our audiences. So actually, as a comms organisation, we have taken a massive look at our own comms in the last few months and realised that we’re not telling our own story, which seems incredible for a communications charity who is based on, you know, which is completely based on storytelling, but it’s something we know we need to get better at. So, we’ve actually been working for the last few months to really define who we are as a charity and what we do and what our kind of aims are, and we’ve worked on our own communication strategy. So, we’ve managed to in that time, we have redone our website, which has a lot more of the stories around again. As you can imagine, our impact is kind of told through storytelling. So has a lot, has a lot more case studies featured on it. We did a podcast as well, which really kind of looked at our impact, and we have also begun to, to really kind of look at how we can bring to life our impact reporting. So it’s not just sitting there as a as a kind of a PDF on a file somewhere, but yes, I think it’s something that’s been a massive learning curve for us, because we were so used to doing it for other people that actually we hadn’t even realised we weren’t doing it for ourselves, and the kind of the recognition of IMIX and of what IMIX does was, was really low. And we work with… we have a network. We hold network of around 1400 organisations, but when speaking to them, we did a listening exercise last year, and not a lot of them really knew what we did. That was a massive wake up call. You know, it was really, it was, it was great to know, and it’s meant we’ve been able to tackle it. So, so, yeah, it’s something that that we’re just beginning to work on ourselves. Obviously, we, we, you know, we do report our impact as needed, but really talking about who we are and what we do is something going forward. And I think, I think although it’s really, really hard to do, so I think sometimes it’s really important just to stop and to take that in. And it’s, you know, we, our work is very reactive quite a lot of the time, and it was really hard to kind of go, Okay, we’re not going to do the day to day stuff for a few weeks, but it’s made such a big difference to kind of how we how we have managed to communicate who we are and what we do. And I think, yeah, people are really scared of stopping and stopping things like social media, because you things might, you know, you have, yeah, reach might go down, but actually it’s been the best thing we’ve ever done. And now we’re able to kind of really think about why we’re doing things and how we’re doing them. And it’s just, yeah, much more effective going forward.
Adeela Warley 26:03
Yes, That’s really, that’s really interesting and very brave. And I’m, I’m sure a lot of people listening to this podcast will be it will give them pause for thought. Think maybe we should be doing something similar. So James, how do you go about Impact Reporting. Is it going well for you guys?
James Harris 26:22
Similar to Jenni I don’t know if I’d say we’ve cracked it. We’re on a journey, and I think we’re making a lot of progress, and I think there’s been a few epiphanies along the way for us. So the first is always talk to my team about the Myers Briggs Personality Test, and there’s the, there’s the T and the F. We sit on a line somewhere between T very logical or F, very feeling. And when I think it’s traditionally, we looked at impact communications, they tended to be quite T. There were, there were variations of infographics trying to wallop people over the head with a fancy graph of how many people you’ve reached and, and you need a bit of that, because there are, there are T’s in the world, but, but I think what we’re moving into is the territory of, how do we speak to the F? And the F comes through storytelling. And we’ve invested in that. We’ve got a, we’ve got a brilliant expert by experience story coordinator, Carrie, who does an amazing job. It’s very time intensive to do it right, to support people, to tell their story, but it’s hugely rewarding. We hope for the people who tell their stories, but also for us as an organisation. And they’ve been lots, it’s been not to say we’ve achieved it overnight. Carrie’s done a lot of hard work, earning the trust of our colleagues, actually, because our colleagues, who are working with people, can often feel a little bit apprehensive. Don’t hand them over to comms. Goodness, goodness knows what comms are going to do with them. They’ll be on the front page, whatever, by tomorrow. And so, it’s earning the trust of our colleagues.
Adeela Warley 28:09
Yes
James Harris 28:09
Working intensely with people so they feel comfortable and giving them control over the output that we are we are producing. And then something else that came up is through this process, is that understanding of what a story is. I remember, I was speaking last year to some colleagues who work in one of our services, and they were telling me about some of the, some of the work they did in the… in, working people in the community. And it could be they took a gentleman to the pub for the first time in a couple of years to have a pint. They, they take they go to the cinema with people, they…they go to football matches, right? Yeah, things that people, many of us, take for granted, that are hugely significant for people to feel part of and, embedded in their community. But when our colleagues were telling us this, they were like, Oh, this, …we do this every day. This isn’t, this isn’t, all that interesting. And the comms people are going, it is! It’s…it’s, like, amazingly interesting. And so for me, it is, let’s not lose sight of the T and the infographics and the impact data and the stats, because that’s important. But it’s the storytelling, and it is the difference we’re making to people’s lives and being able to give them a platform in a safe and supportive way for them to be able to share that.
Adeela Warley 29:15
I think that’s… I think that’s such, such a good point, really. And it comes back to Jenni’s point about building humanity into our communications. Because people, people don’t really remember facts and figures. I mean, I mean, I would listen to the news at lunchtime, and I can’t remember what, you know, I can’t remember half of it, but I do remember stories and how I felt, how they made me feel. And it’s so, so powerful. And I think that’s what really good communicators can help organisations to do, is to be able to tell their stories in meaningful ways, it’s incredibly powerful. So to bring our conversation towards a close, I hope that you could share some words of wisdom for charity comms teams and leaders about the role of strategic communications in tackling today’s biggest challenges, like the ones that we’ve discussed, actually. So, Jenni, what would be your advice? What would you like to share?
Jenni Regan 30:12
A couple of things, if that’s okay? So, first of all, just to say communications is leadership. I think, you know, I think it can feel quite rare that, that communications, there’s a kind of line for communicators to necessarily become, become leaders, but it is leadership. It’s not about just visibility. It’s really about shaping how people think, how they act, how they feel. I think, from my point of view, investing in people is huge. You’re not necessarily always going to get people in who, who tick every single box, but investing in people and developing communication skills, as we did with, with our colleague, Eli, I think was, was really important, but also when you’re looking at storytelling, having, making sure that storytelling has a purpose and a call to action. So it’s not just it’s not just telling a nice story. Stories should also be linked to, to kind of policy change or, or, or narrative change, or fundraising, so,, so ensuring that there’s always a purpose to it. And also, I think I’ve kind of mentioned it, not being afraid to make mistakes and change if something is not working. You know, we’re in a really lucky position. We are a very small charity. We’re very agile. We can do that, possibly not, not so much, for the bigger charities. But, you know, don’t be afraid to just, just take a bit of a step back from something and then, and then get back to it when you know what you’re doing better.
Adeela Warley 31:35
Thank you so much. Jenni, that’s such powerful insights and, and pearls of wisdom. And James, what about you? What would you like to share?
James Harris 31:44
Well, first, I’d like to really reinforce what, what Jenni said around, you know, creating that safe environment for people to be able to experiment and take risks, make mistakes, learn, iterate, move on, because that’s where, that’s where the good stuff comes from, that environment. So I really, really would reinforce that..For me, if I was speaking to charity leaders, I would say the comms, the comms people, if they’re doing their job well, we’re the radically candid ones who will pipe up that if you can’t explain that really important, complex thing you’re doing to your imaginary 15 year old son, daughter, niece, nephew, or mate down the pub. If you don’t, then you’re in trouble, and you need people like those in your organisation who are going to actually say hang on a minute. This is all well and good, but if you can’t explain it, then there’s a bit, you know, this charity has got some problems. And then the final thing I would say, it’s something I talk about quite a lot, to the team and to others, is… I was on a training course once, and I believe this, I can’t take credit for this. So it’s a BBC Maxim, which is: be new, true and interesting. And that is, that’s on a daily basis, when, when things come across our desks or in meetings, it is, hang on a minute. Is this new, true and interesting? And again, comms people, if they’re doing their job, sometimes it can create a little bit of tension. We’re the ones going hang on a minute. Can we tick those three boxes so those would be my hopeful words of wisdom.
Adeela Warley 33:12
I love that mantra. I’m going to take that one away. I can see Jenni nodding as well.
Jenni Regan 33:19
Never heard that when I was at the BBC.
James Harris 33:23
The true bits gone a bit missing in today’s world.
Jenni Regan 33:25
Yeah, we need to hold on to it.
Adeela Warley 33:27
Well, Jenni and James, I’m feeling really, truly inspired by our chat this afternoon, and I hope that our listeners are too. I just want to close the session by sharing the news about CharityComms’ Strategic Communicators’ online conference on the 30th of April. This event is for anyone steering communications in their charity who is looking to develop their strategic approaches and to learn about emerging trends. We’ll be covering some of the biggest challenges facing charity communicators right now and exploring the solutions together. And in true CharityComms style, there’ll be plenty of time to network with your peers, so please do visit charitycomms.org.uk for more details of how you can be part of that and, and to access all our resources as well. And we really look forward to seeing you there. Thank you.
